#9 What isn’t the Gospel
Show Notes
Anthony and Cody discuss what is NOT the Gospel, specifically looking at the Romans Road, the 4 Spiritual Laws, and the ABCs of the Gospel. These methods for sharing the Gospel often take the place of the Gospel in the thinking of modern Christians. What is missing is the story, the narrative of Christ’s work. What’s at stake when we jump to theological extrapolation and methodology and leave the core of the Gospel behind?
Music: Dark Mantras by Huaaanggg
Podcast Transcript
[00:00:00] This light, momentary affliction is preparing an eternal weight of glory for us beyond all comparison as we look not to the things that are seen, but to the unseen, two Corinthians four 17 through 18, in a post materialistic world filled with immense spiritual noise, we're here to uncover the ancient near Eastern in context of the Bible.
To recover the truly mystical faith of our spiritual forefathers. Welcome to the Biblical Re Enchantment Podcast, where we bridge the gap between the ancient Hebrew story and modern insights. I'm Anthony Delgado, your host for this journey into the often overlooked mystical dimensions of the Bible. And I'm Cody Urban, co host, and here for the fun.
Thanks, Cody. This is episode number nine. We're going to be talking today about what isn't the gospel. Last episode, we looked at [00:01:00] the ancient Near Eastern context of the Bible to discuss what a gospel is and how that word is used within the scriptures and within the ancient world. And today we're going to look at how we use the idea of gospel today and sort of criticize the idea of presenting the gospel, maybe just a little bit.
Now, many evangelistic tools exist for communicating the gospel, and I'm careful to call them evangelistic tools because they're not the gospel themselves. In the last episode, again, we described the gospel as a God story, an announcement of the good news of what God has done through Jesus Christ. Um, now three of many of these evangelistic tools, um, that are used by Protestants and evangelistic or evangelical Christians for supposedly communicating the gospel.
I think we're going to, we're going to analyze some of these in this episode. Um, the, these focus on. What I would say are the effects of the gospel, [00:02:00] but not the substance of the gospel. And I think because they focus on the effects of the gospel, what we want to get out of the gospel and not really the substance of the gospel, what the gospel really is.
My fear is that if we use these tools and focus on these tools as if they were themselves the gospel, it produces in us a human centric gospel message. that says little about Jesus story. Yeah, I know. I mean, last week we were talking about the euangelion, right? Where people would go and, and proclaim this, this good news of the birth of a king or a great victory.
And essentially they're telling a story that, you know, this new King's born this, we've had this great victory, you know, it was a decisive defeat of our enemies, et cetera, et cetera. And you look at the gospels. You know, Matthew, mark, Luke, and John, they, they're stories, they're narratives. That's what we're, we're reading.[00:03:00]
And I feel like if I just, I don't know, I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying in, in a way that I, I hope would reiterate it for, for others in English class, in high school, I would would've to write an essay on the Great Gatsby. And I'm trying to break it down and look at literary devices or, you know, symbolism of certain things and kind of just what the heck that movie was about.
What does it mean? Granted, I'm talking about the movie. It was a book too. Either way, I write an essay that's, you know, five paragraphs. Imagine if somebody picked that up and just said, Oh, the great Gatsby is introduction point one, two, and three conclusion. I don't need to go read the book and walk away as if they fully understand.
The Great Gatsby from this very truncated distilled analysis of the story versus Actually hearing the story, or viewing the [00:04:00] story, or listening to the story, however it is, but actually going from beginning, middle, and end, going through the flow of it, seeing how the characters evolve, what is the resolution at the end, and then allow the audience to start creating their own essays, right?
Their own, uh, start actually coming up with action items. What do I do with that information? You know, how did that change me and stir me and, you know, and so forth. And I think, I think what I'm hearing you saying is that with the, how did you put it, evangelistic tools. loosely Are or kind of like the essay I want to say yeah, it's yeah It's like like if we're gonna focus on just the effects of the gospel Yeah, we're getting the mundane part or I mean, maybe it's not mundane But we're looking at the promises of the gospel and we have no understanding of how we even got there And and yeah, it would be like reading the essay which nobody wants to read the [00:05:00] essay, right?
Like why like nobody wants to read the five paragraph essay Um, and yet for some reason, God bless English teachers who have to read 30 of those per class, right? But nobody wants to read a five paragraph essay, but they'll read an entire novel. And the reason for that is because the novel itself has this power to change.
Even when it doesn't make any propositional claims itself about what you should do or think or anything else, yet it has this power to change in a way that that essay, though it does include the propositional data, nobody wants to read it. It doesn't have that kind of power. And so, yeah, so that's, yeah.
So I think the analogy is sound. Yeah. I think it's really good. So what follows, we're actually going to look at three of these, uh, three of these different systems. Now, these aren't. My own evangelistic practices, but we're going to look at them because they're, they're common ones that I've seen used a lot in evangelical and Protestant churches for [00:06:00] sharing the gospel.
And we do, we want to not in a negative way, criticize them, but we want to pick them apart a little bit, um, in order to illustrate what's going on. why it is that we need a more robust, more comprehensive view of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is, the work that he's accomplished, the, the true, large, the mega narrative, if you will, of what Christ is accomplished on our behalf.
Essentially, you're trying to say that the gospel is bigger than you think, which happens to be a book. My, my good friend, Anthony Delgado, just published. Uh, you just came out with this book. I'm very excited about it. It is called The Gospel is Bigger than You Think, and it, it definitely rings true with things that I have felt very passionate and excited about when I started in, in my journey of faith throughout the last, you know, several decades.
Some point starting to realize [00:07:00] essentially the title of your book, right? That the gospel isn't just these little evangelistic tools, that those tools, Well, we're going to deconstruct them in a second here, but realizing where they fall short and that it is so much bigger. And I'm very excited that you just came out with an entire book that is all about that.
And, and takes what our conversations are to, to all sorts of high levels, new, new levels. And, and, uh, I just want to encourage everybody to check it out. I appreciate that Cody. It did. It dropped on Amazon and paperback and it'll be coming out in other retailers and formats, uh, here in weeks and months to come.
Uh, so yeah, check that out. Gospel is bigger than you think by Anthony Delgado. So yeah, appreciate the plug on that. Uh, let's go ahead and jump in. So the first one we want to take a look at is called the four spiritual laws. This one's been out for a long time. It's used in a lot of different circles in the evangelical world.
The four spiritual laws are, [00:08:00] they're kind of a brief outline of this one's really just theological ideas that you can use to lead someone to salvation. It's based on what, uh, sort of based on. Evangelical subculture, what we believe someone must know in order to become a Christian. So it's sort of, these were developed by asking the question, what, like, it's, it's, this is awful actually, if you think about it, it's, they were developed based on asking the question, like, what is the bare minimum somebody needs to know to be a Christian?
Like that's really how you come up with this type of idea. And so what I want to do is go through these four spiritual laws. Which I don't think they're really laws, but anyway, the, um, that, but that's what they call them. I don't think it's the right word for what they, what they are getting at, but you know, I didn't develop these.
So we got to, we got to stick with what the terminology is. So the first one is God loves you and created you to know him personally. Well, yeah, yeah, true, [00:09:00] right? And yeah, I appreciate the amen because I don't want to, I don't want to create, criticize these unjustly. Like, I think, I think, um, I think I agree with everything in all three of these systems that we're going to talk about today.
I think I agree with everything that is said in all three of them. The problem is that they're not the gospel, right? Now, is there gospel truth in this? Is there, where's the story? Well, let's see, we just, we just, Yeah, that's what I was about to say. Just based off of the the premise that we're establishing that gospel is God's story.
God loves you and created you to know him personally. God created you would be a story. If I had to pull a story out of that. Yeah, it's a story element, right? And yeah, sure. Yeah, it's a, it's a It's a distilled story element. Um, it's not a very interesting story the way it's told, but, but it is a story element.
And, [00:10:00] um, I mean, I guess it does say why God created you because he loves you. I mean, I guess that might be an implication of that. And then, and then you have an effect, um, or, or, or, or an inference, right? Because, because he created you, he wants you to know him. And, and maybe we can be sensitive to this first one because, hey, this is just the first spiritual law.
This is something that you need to know before you can understand the gospel. So, so hey, let's go on to the second one. God loves you and created you to know him personally. So hey, let's go on to the second one. Man is sinful and separated from God. So we cannot know him personally or experience his love.
So is there gospel in this one? What do you think?
Uh, boy, I mean, knowing the Bible, I know the story. So when it says man sinful, uh, in [00:11:00] the separation from God, I can see like, you know, we're hearkening back to Genesis. But if I were to just tell people that, I'm not sure how that's conveyed. I'm also not entirely sure. I, I, there's a lot of that that I, that I do completely agree with, and yet there's other parts that I'm not sure I completely agree with.
So calling it a law is kind of, you know, I don't know. Yeah, I actually do think I agree with you on that, that I'm not sure that if I were to try to distill spiritual laws that I would word it this way exactly. But maybe if we're going to just be sensitive theologically, I think, I think we might want to include Parts of Genesis three and say that there is definitely, there is a, there is a human rebellion, you know, human, humankind walking away from, uh, the garden from the paradise, from the presence of God, uh, being born outside of God's presence.
So there is that [00:12:00] separation from God that is essential part of the storyline to the gospel. That, you know, so I, so I think we have some gospel truth in there. I just think like, if we're trying to lead someone to Christ. Like how is this being communicated like I just wonder how that how helpful that this is Um, where is the, where's the inspiring someone to want to know God personally and to experience him?
Like, where is the, where's the telling the story of who God is and what God is doing in the world so that they want to experience his love? Like, like to me, that's what the real gospel story is. Right? Yeah. I mean, I would definitely have to reward that. To try to do that. I mean, especially linking to number one.
God loves you created you to know him personally and what keeps us from that is the [00:13:00] sin of man and that is Wrecking not just the relationship with god. It's wrecking wrecking our relationship with each other um And in so many different levels, you know at a societal level But I mean heck the at the beginning right the very first sin separated adam and eve their their intimacy was was destroyed Right and so Yeah, I would say that God is good and doing good in this world.
And we are through sin bringing such brokenness, um, and which would lead to the next point, I'm sure about how God would be working to save us because we can't, do you want to read that one for us? Number three, number three, Jesus Christ is God's only provision for man's sin through him alone. We can know God personally and experience God's [00:14:00] love.
Yeah. So I think my initial issue with this is that there, the law is going to say through him alone. So it's going to assume it's going to assume the gospel and explain the effect, right? So it's not going to actually tell what Jesus did to provide for my man's sin.
Doesn't mention the cross or the life he lived or exactly who who he is. I mean Jesus is God's only provision, but it's not saying that he is God the Son Incarnate as man. There's so much. Yeah, even if yeah, like even if they wanted to keep it short There's things that could have been said sure and yet and yet, you know, and you know me like I don't I don't see the need to sit down and have one single conversation and With somebody and say, okay, do you believe this?
You want to get baptized? You know what I mean? Like, I don't have, I don't, I don't feel that kind of [00:15:00] pressure. I think like in God's providence, like there's room to say, Hey, let's, let's take some time on this. But, um, even if you did feel that kind of pressure, I think, I think these could be focused more on the gospel story that really teaches a deeper truth.
Instead of, instead of on the effect, because the, because again, focusing on the effect, is dealing with, is creating a human centric view of the gospel. Almost, almost as if the gospel is something that gives, is about giving humans what humans want, um, rather than carrying out what God has designed for all humankind.
Um, yes. And, and what Jesus has accomplished. life, death, resurrection, who he is, just the, the, the birth of him, you know, that we celebrate at Christmas is all [00:16:00] part of the gospel. I mean, you've granted only two of the gospels really cover that sort of John talk talks about in a way. But, um, yeah, I, man, I'm just even thinking our shortest gospel is the, is the gospel of Mark.
And even that is so much longer than these four. points, you know, and that's one of the more distilled down ones in a way. And it's still all focused on who Jesus is and what he has done and what he's continuing to do through his spirits. And. You know, what, where he left with the great commission. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's interesting.
So let's look at number four and, uh, the fourth spiritual law. So assuming what Christ has done to provide number four says we must individually receive Jesus Christ as savior and Lord. Then we can know God personally and experience his love. [00:17:00] Um,
this one is really a
risk, you know, it's calling for a response. I don't know if it's even historically represented. Um, at least it's not, not as, not as far as it's worded to individually receive Jesus Christ as savior and Lord. Um, I don't, I don't think that make, that If we use that language that that makes someone not a Christian, I'm just saying that language isn't historically represented well, that that's very much a contemporary way of speaking about right.
How someone comes to be a follower of Christ. So to say that it's a spiritual laws is definitely a stretch, I think. Um, but anyway, I mean, do you want to discuss here? Like that whole personal Lord and Savior [00:18:00] I'll put quotes around that, because that expression, I believe, is not actually in the New Testament, you know?
And it has, it's tossed around quite a bit in, especially in the evangelical world. Well, to those who did receive him, he gave the right to become children of God, John says. So, um, but that, that idea of receiving, is not praying a prayer to and asking Jesus to come into your heart. So that's not what is meant by receive.
And, uh, um, it's probably a bigger theological question than we ought to deal with right here. But, um, so, so there is that stay tuned, but yeah, let's say, yes, yes. Stay tuned to future podcasts. Um, uh, I think we get a better glimpse of maybe the hinge pin of when someone moves from being not a follower of Jesus to being a follower of Jesus being that [00:19:00] sort of On one side of a moat, if you, if you figure theologically, there's a moment of salvation, although I think that it's hard to pinpoint when that moment is, I think it's probably impossible to pinpoint when that moment is theologically, we would say there is a moment.
And so, uh, what transition someone over that across that moment, if you will, is that on one side. Jesus isn't Lord, and on the other side, He is, and on one side, you don't believe that Jesus is, and this is Romans 10, by the way, um, that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God rose Him from the dead, then you'll be saved, and so, it's that heart conviction that Christ is indeed risen.
And the profession that Jesus is Lord, um, that makes one saved. So it's Jesus is king. And I indeed believe in his resurrection, which is an essential part of our salvation. Because if we don't believe that he rose, Paul says that [00:20:00] like, then what hope do we have where we are ourselves to be accursed then.
So like. You know, so like that the resi Christ's resurrection is absolutely essential to everything that we believe so you have to have Christ's resurrection You have to have his kingship his lordship. If you don't have those two things you have no salvation. You have no church You have no Christianity.
So That's Paul's essentials. And I think he's you know, I think I'm not gonna argue with Paul So if we're gonna be very reductionistic, I don't want to be reductionistic apart from that and But I don't know about this. I don't know about this personal Lord and Savior business that we start to get here in this, um, in this fourth law here, because that's not language that we get from the Church Fathers.
It's not language we get from the scriptures. We do get it in some, um, in, in some, uh, uh, Older English theology. Um, but the word, the idea of, um, God as a personal God in theology doesn't mean a [00:21:00] God that is your God personally. Uh, as in I have my, I have my relationship with God, my one on one time with Jesus.
Now, is there something to that in the sense that like, Like my kids aren't saved because I'm a Christian, okay? So like there is a personal relationship with God, but I think we overemphasize that in evangelical Christianity. What we mean by a personal relationship with, we're, by God as a personal God in theology is that He is not an impersonal, transcendent, and not imminent God.
That He is Immanuel God with us, that He is personal, that He has a Um, that he has a nature that is present with his people. And so that word personal, uh, has a complex history because it got confused and misused, um, in early evangelicalism [00:22:00] and got sort of reborn, if you will, if I could be obnoxious in, uh, in its contemporary usage in a lot of, you could say practical.
practical application. So, all right. So we should probably move on for time's sake. So I'm not a big fan of the four spiritual laws for a lot of reasons, as you can tell. Um, but let's talk about the Romans road. Romans road is just scripture. So how can you go wrong there? We can't criticize Paul and the book of Romans.
Can we? Um, there's a lot of different versions of the Romans road. Uh, if you go online, sometimes it's four verses. Sometimes it's as many as 10. Uh, but essentially what the Romans road is doing is it's going through scripture, uh, going through the book of Romans. I've seen him plug in verses from John and other places.
And it's like, yeah, it's not the Romans road anymore, but anyway, I think what I've got here is like the. Probably the standard the one I've seen the most common and we're just going to go through these five verses from from [00:23:00] romans and supposedly You can lead someone to jesus christ by reading a reading these five verses from romans and explaining them And so let's just go.
So the first one is romans 3 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Now that's a great verse. I quote it in sermons and things all the time. Uh, I think it's a really important verse in scripture. I actually think that all of Romans three is really good. Um, or all of Romans for that matter.
But anyway, you can't really quote all of Romans in a sermon, but anyway, so, um, do we have any gospel in there? Do you know?
Well, we have that same callback to Genesis three, like to the, to the human rebellion, right? So we've got this all have sinned. Um, and we have this implication of what it means that all have sinned. So we have this effect of the gospel, which I mean, to a degree, if you're going to, if you're going to say.
The gospel is the story. If you're going to tell the story, [00:24:00] I think it's fair enough to say here's the effect of that. So because this is what happened, this is what, you know, you know, this is, this is the result. So I think it's fair enough, but let's not just say the effects without saying what happened.
Right. So we do have that same thing, like we saw in the four spiritual laws. Like we do have this call out to Genesis three, Romans five, eight, go ahead and read that one for us. All right. It says, but God proves his own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Kind of similar to point or law one and three in a way, right?
Where law one was beginning with God's love, but law three was about Jesus being the way, you know, back into God's knowing God and experiencing his love and stuff like that. So. It's interesting how, how the Romans road is laid out this way so far that the first scripture is kind [00:25:00] of law two from the previous one.
I don't know. I'm just kind of synthesizing the two and seeing how they, they fit together, but that's not even necessarily the point is trying to figure out how are these are gospel or are we seeing God's story? Yeah. I mean, I think the one thing we see is the end part, right? Christ died for us. But, but I mean, like, yeah.
That's Paul and Romans reflecting on the gospel. Right? He's reflecting literally on the gospel narratives, the gospels, Matthew, mark, Luke, and John. Right? He's literally reflect reflecting on the gospels. In a way, the book of Romans is anest an extrapolation? It is. It is. Paul reflecting on the effects of the books of Matthew, mark, Luke, John.
Well, actually, right. Actually, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Yeah, sure. Yeah. The historical, [00:26:00] but I was, I mean, my question is it is, yes, I totally agree on that. But is that even the point of why Romans was written? Because if the Romans wrote, ideally is the, is I would share as a Christ follower to somebody who is not a Christ follower.
And I would lead them through these verses. You would get the sense that the Book of Romans was written for non believers, and yet it's written to believers. And yes, there's truths, uh, that can be shared to a non believer, no question. But it, I mean, when Paul sat down to write the Book of Romans, or the letter, right, to the churches in Rome, um, was his point, To lead somebody to Christ or that that doesn't know Jesus or would it be more to Affirm the faith and strengthen the faith and practices of the Christians there [00:27:00] with truths Coming from the gospels, right?
Does it is what I'm trying to say making sense? Well, hopefully I mean paul's never been to rome and to his knowledge he doesn't seem to really think that any of the apostles have been to rome and so You He seems to, you know, we've got some theories about probably Pentecost being the reason why there's believers in Rome, you know, Acts two.
And so he's kind of going, okay, there's a bunch of Christians in Rome so much so that there's an actual church there, but let's make sure you've got your gospel straight. And so what's interesting is, and I'm actually preaching through Romans at Palmdale Church right now. And so it's, it's actually very interesting because in the prologue where Paul just goes through his opening blessing and all of that, he, he actually tells the gospel from a, from a very Matthew perspective where he lays out like kind of a kingdom gospel, um, and uh, kind of a very kingdom oriented gospel.
And then he go, he [00:28:00] keeps going on, um, you know, so he talks about in verse three, Uh, uh, I almost just want to read it. So Paul, starting at the top of Romans, Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus called to be an apostle set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised. So he says set apart for the gospel of God.
He's going to tell us about the gospel in other words, which he promised beforehand through his prophets. So in other words, the prophets of the old Testament told about the gospel. Which means he means the gospel of Jesus through which his prophets and the Holy Scriptures concerning his son. That's how he notes about Jesus who was descended from David.
So we know that the gospel has to do with, uh, Davidic kingship, um, uh, according to the flesh. So like a fleshly, earthly reign of Christ, right? That's what we're talking about. And was declared to be the son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness. So we're not only talking about an earthly kingship, and I'm not going to unpack all of the exegetical work here, [00:29:00] but we're also talking about a heavenly kingship.
In other words, not just a God on earth, but a God in heaven. And that's why he ascends to the right hand of the father after, um, his resurrection. Um, and that's what Paul says, because he says, uh, according to the spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead. Jesus Christ, our Lord, through whom he received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for his name among all the nations, including you who were called to belong to Jesus Christ.
So he's even recognizing that the Romans are only Christians because Jesus Christ came, uh, as the heir to David's throne in the flesh on earth, and yet also, uh, received all authorities. He sends it at the end of Matthew in the great commission and ascended to the right hand of the father, receiving all authority in the heaven and the cosmos.
So, if that's not the kingdom gospel, I don't, I don't know what it is. Right. And so this is his. I absolutely love it. And I wonder why that's not in the Romans rule. I know. Right. So, because. Because we think that the Romans road is Jesus died [00:30:00] for your sins. And it, and so we pick the verses that centralize on the doctrine of justification.
So that's why it's Romans 3, 23, all of sin and falsehood of the glory of God. So you sin and God's mad Romans 5, 8, but God loves you. So while you were still sinners, Christ died for you. And no, no, no clarity on why Jesus had to die because you sinned. But thank God he did because he loves you. And then Romans 6, 23, well, the wages of sin is death.
So in other words, somebody had to die and it's like, wow, that's a big, that's a big deal because like, especially if we think about it today, like most people aren't murderers. So, like, if I killed somebody, then I have a category for being killed because I killed somebody. Eye for an eye. Right. I mean, you look even in the Torah, you know.
Right. Like, at least we understand, like, on a, [00:31:00] on some kind of basic level. But even if I, like, like, like beat somebody or, like, uh, was, like, an adulterer or something like that, like, I don't understand why somebody has to die for that. Like this, these are really hard things to communicate to somebody without like the entire story of the Bible, frankly, not just even the, even the gospels are frankly, just not enough here.
And yet we're going through these verses going, no, no, no. It's like Jesus had to die because the wages of sin is death. And it's like my worst sin is when I was 10. I stole a candy bar from the liquor store or whatever, right? And that's what that's what people are thinking and it's like really that's your worst sin It's like well, I guess I have been cheating on my taxes, you know It's like even the irs isn't gonna kill you for that, you know, I mean probably You know, um, at least right now, you [00:32:00] know, and we're sitting here trying to use the roman's road and say yeah But it all adds up and so jesus died for you and it's like really?
But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord and we're like no I promise you the Bible says Somebody has to die. Your sin is that bad? God is that angry? I just I'm just like I don't think this works because we're and it doesn't work because we're not Telling the story that's why it doesn't work is because we're not telling the story Romans 8 1 there Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Where's the gospel? Why, why does Jesus dying mean that all Christians don't have to die for their sins? So, so it's a huge question. It's like, because we're not telling the story, you know what I mean? So like, if you can, and then in the Romans 10, nine, which I said, which I, we already just talked [00:33:00] about this one, but if you confess with your mouth, Jesus Lord, believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you'll be saved.
That's a beautiful verse. If we're going to reduce the gospel, like at least the call to believe, if we're going to reduce it to anything, that's what we need to reduce it to. But At least in my opinion, I think that's the clearest call to believe anywhere in the Bible. Um, I don't know. I think I think also take up your cross and follow me is pretty good, you know But I mean, I think that's all wrapped up in what it means to confess that jesus is lord, um, yeah, yeah Cause you deny yourself, take up your cross.
Before we move on, do you have any, any other thoughts about like, why missing the story here, like where the story is missing in the Romans road?
I just know, I remember trying to lead somebody to Christ, uh, and I pulled out my pamphlet that I got at [00:34:00] summer camp. And it was, I think kind of what I was doing earlier, a bit of a combination of the Romans road and the, the four laws sort of. Trying to, but still try to truncate it out piece by piece by piece.
And I don't know. It just, it didn't land. Right. I mean, he, He ended up saying that prayer with me because it kind of leads you to it, you know, it's like, well, do you want to die? No, I want to live with Jesus. I want to know God's love. Great. So lead him through the sinner's prayer, pat him on the back, hope the best, and then find out it, you know, he never entered into a fellowship, uh, or, or, you know, following Jesus and such.
And, uh, are there people that do the, listen to the Romans road and actually do become lifelong followers of Jesus? Probably. I mean, I would, but[00:35:00]
it is, but it is bigger than you think, as I've heard in a title of a book that it is so much bigger than just these, these five verses or four laws. And these don't feel like they tell me who Jesus is, why he had to die. What does it mean? All right, so I can say that he is Lord, but what does that mean for me?
What does that look like, you know without? seeing the life that he lived or Hearing the the the teachings that he taught as well because all of those are part of the story of Jesus Well, and and it's interesting because like I think I think that lordship to just obedience I think that's Then we're kind of just becoming fundamentalists and making lordship a, a moral issue.
Yeah. It's works. Yeah. Or workspace type of thing. Yeah. But I mean, it's really [00:36:00] not what Lordship is. You know, like if you think of like a lord of a, of the land, you know, a lord of the land, the Lord kind of owns the land and he, and he sort of leases the land or whatever to the people that live in it and work it and.
You know, the, the Lord is, yeah, there's a moral aspect to Lordship, but the Lord is the, is the caregiver and the organizer and the, the peacekeeper and the administrator of his people. Like he's a, he's a, a Lord is almost just a different word for a King, you know? Um, sure. And so, and I also think how Lord became the, the word, in place of the name Yahweh.
And is it, I'm, I would want to do some homework, but if, do you know offhand, I mean, is this, [00:37:00] is this alluding to not just Jesus as King, high power, high sovereign Lord, but also that, well, we use this word biblically to mean Yahweh God, and I would say that believing that Jesus is, yeah, he's, he's in charge, but he he's in charge because he's on that throne, not just, you know, You know, like the president or the Caesar or, you know, but he's, he's on the heavenly throne over the cosmos and that, that means, yeah, I definitely thinks, and I think, you know, that I think so, but yeah, I definitely think so.
So like when we get the very specific phrase, the Lord Jesus Christ, I think we're, that's, that's supposed to trigger knowledge. And if we were Greek speaking, I think it definitely, if we are Greek speaking Jews, and we read that in the Koine Greek. We would read that and think, Yahweh, Jesus, Messiah. Um, or read it, [00:38:00] Yahweh, Jesus, Davidic King.
You know what I mean? And we would be thinking, Heavenly, Eternal King, who is Jesus, and also Earthly Davidic King. All wrapped up into one and the Lord Jesus Christ. I also think another spot you can, and, and, and we can argue that very clearly through scripture, um, in acts two, Peter said that, uh, Jesus was made both Lord and Christ that that's the same thing at play.
That's the same mechanism of play. He was, he is both Yahweh and he is both Yahweh, the King of the universe, the, of the cosmos and also the Davidic King. And then, um, Jesus even speaking to the scribes and the Pharisees says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say. And he's, [00:39:00] and then they freak out.
All they had to do was say, we don't call you that because they don't. But if you read the Septuagint version of Amos, he's, he's quoting, he's quoting in the Hebrew. Uh, the phrase Adonai Yahweh and, uh, from the Hebrew, which could be translated in the Greek text as Kyrios, Kyrios, Lord, Lord. And, uh, and it's only in some of the minority texts translated that way, cause there's multiple words for Lord in the Greek, but, um, and so they usually diversify and use both words so that they're interchangeable and it doesn't read weird.
Um, but then it becomes curious, curious in the New Testament, um, just a textual variant issue. But that's what they're reading there is, and that's what we're supposed to hear is, why do you call me? Adonai Yahweh and do not do what I say. And they're like, why on earth would we call you [00:40:00] Adonai Yahweh? Lord, Lord God, Lord, you know, Lord God, most high creator of the universe.
Why would we call you that? You know, and that's why they lose their minds when he says that, you know? So yeah, absolutely. I think anywhere we see Lord in conjunction with Jesus, we're supposed to think Yahweh, um, the God of all things. Yeah. So yeah, for sure. Let's, let's move on and let's talk about the ABCs of the gospel.
So this is one that's used specifically in the Southern Baptist Convention, which I think is important for a number of reasons. Um, Southern Baptist Convention is the largest, uh, Protestant denomination in the, in the United States. And so, you know, a lot of what happens in evangelicalism, whether anybody wants to admit it or not, maybe you're part of a non denominational church, or you're part of some other denomination, uh, it, it doesn't matter.
Um, the Southern Baptist Convention is responsible for a lot of what culturally happens in, uh, in Protestantism, [00:41:00] specifically in the evangelical world. And so they have this And it's used a lot with kids, but I have seen it used with adults, um, uh, very frequently. And so, uh, it's called the ABCs of the gospel, and I'm going to go through this quickly and then we'll just talk about it.
In a minute, but it goes like this, admit our need, believe on Jesus is classical. And now they're starting to realize that believe on Jesus is weird language. And they say, believe in Jesus and then call out to him. And so what this is supposed to be as a process, um, admit, believe, call ABC. That's right.
And, and it's really interesting because, um, people will sit down with somebody and say, so. You, you, you realize you have a spiritual need, right? Yeah. I just, I have this empty, I came to church today cause I just have this emptiness. Well, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and call out to him. Would you like to [00:42:00] do that today?
And they think they've shared the gospel with somebody because they think this ABC and sometimes they're pointing to a poster, like, and like, uh, it's really interesting. And I just wanted to read a quote. Um, and this comes from, uh, this comes from, Lifeway Research Group, um, uh, it comes from Aaron Wilson of Lifeway Research Group, an article written in 2018.
And he writes, in its simplest form, the ABCs of salvation is not the gospel. Rather, the acts of admitting, believing, and confessing, and you might add on repenting, are all biblical responses to the gospel. The distinction is important and as essential as it is for kids to learn how to glorify God in responding to the gospel, they cannot do so unless they first rightly hear the message that prompts a response.
And I think that can be [00:43:00] applied anywhere, honestly, to any of these. That the mistake that we make by thinking that the Romans road or four spiritual laws or the ABCs of the gospel, that any of these are tools, right? Are an actual gospel presentation. Uh, I think they all fail because they lack the substance of the gospel itself.
They all focus. They're all human centric, focused on effects of the gospel and the response to it without having any gospel substance, any, any gospel story itself. I don't know what, did you have any, any thoughts on that?
Only that I agree entirely with that. Um, And it makes me run through my head. Okay. [00:44:00] So how do I share the gospel? Because I'm not going to find time with somebody and say, Hey, sit down with me and let me read to you the, the book of Mark, you know? So, uh, I think that's why, I think that's why we do that. I think that's why, you know, we've tried to distill it down to these little bullet points pieces that are actionable.
Right. So it's all essentially like. action items. Yes, there's a little bit of information, you know, um, but mostly what, what can you do right here, right now and, and cut to the quick. But as I start to say that, I go, well, you just read part of Romans one where Paul did share the gospel in, in a, in a, in a, a very concise way, but it was all focused on who Jesus is as a person.
Yahweh God [00:45:00] and Messiah, the, the anointed, the Christ. And, but he's, he's the Davidic King. He's King of Kings, Lord of Lords. He's the, the, the, the one who's saving us, saving the world over. And I guess then I, then I, my mind goes back to kind of that idea, that analogy of, um, say, uh, reading a book or watching a movie and then writing the essay and then only sharing the essay.
Um, how could I, how can I share with others the, the movie or the book or, yeah, and then it's like, well, I have done that. I've, I've, I've gone and seen a great movie or read a great book and I'm not going to tell them my analysis of it and why that should inspire them to change their life. Right. I mean, I'm going to.
I'm gonna tell them [00:46:00] this changed my life If it did right, I mean if but but maybe a movie it inspired me, you know to to plant more trees or something Uh, because I saw the lorax i'm not gonna be like You know, well the lorax teaches this and you need to go plant more trees. It was like who's the lorax lorax That you keep talking about.
Yeah Yeah, yeah, not that I'm trying to say that Jesus is a fictional character like the Lorax, but it's it's But you watch the Lorax or read the book and you feel excited about you're right though Because often often when I'm doing research for like more Like in depth theological super geeky scholarly stuff.
I'll read book reviews and theological journals and so you're just reading these concise couple of paragraph reviews of really thick dense theological works and you don't want to go read like a 400 page dense theological work and [00:47:00] then go That's not what I wanted to read. Right. You, so, so you do, you go and read reviews in these theological journals to see, is this even on the topic I want, you know, and, but a lot of times when you're picking through those, they just don't seem nearly as helpful as you'd hoped when you dove into the process.
Like. They just don't, you read them and you're like, still not sure if the book is going to be worth the read, or sometimes they're just reviews of articles or things like that. But like, they just don't have the flavor. And so sometimes you do still need to pick up the book or pick up the journal or pick up the article or whatever, and, and get into it before you know, if it's even what What you were hoping for and so yeah, there's there's almost no shortcuts My last cop my last question that I had and I think maybe we need to you know Put a time limit of three minutes on it because I know we need to protect time listeners and players and our [00:48:00] time, but, um, my last question was, why do you think we tend to focus on these theological ideas, these effects and, and, and calls rather than on the gospel story?
And I think you already sort of answered it. You kind of said for time's sake, yeah, for time's sake, like, how do I, how do I get to these points? And I do want to respond to that quickly and say, we're going to talk about that more. We're going to talk about the practical. And I think I already mentioned that, like, what's helpful in that process of sharing the gospel with friends and stuff is just trusting that God's sovereign over, over his word going forth, that, um, uh, he is the Lord of the harvest and we can trust him in that.
And I think that can, you know, ease some of our, some of our concerns. But, but what, what else? Why do we, why do you think that we might tend to focus on theological ideas rather than the gospel story? What, what might prompt us to be more comfortable with these sort of systems of sharing the gospel rather than focusing on story more like the gospel writers do?
Hmm. [00:49:00] This may be very similar to what I already said, but I think there's a little bit level, a different level of, uh, heart behind it or theological oomph for lack of much different words but that I've been to Evangelistic Crusades or you know altar calls and such and the questions asked if you were to you know Leave this auditorium today and get hit by a car and die Where will you go?
Are you going to heaven? Are you the manipulation factor? And I Well, it is. But if that is your paradigm and you believe that that is possible, that is possible, the person I'm talking to right now could walk away from me from this conversation, get hit by a bus and spend eternity in, in hellfire. I don't, again, I know it's a time issue, but I think it's, it's actually, it's less than about, well, how do I take the time to, you know, tell them the gospel, but [00:50:00] more like the urgency of, Right now I need to get this person saved because you never know how long you have, right?
And so yes, it is a time thing, but it is it is getting to well I need to try to get to the brass tacks right now for this person's, you know, eternal salvation And I think that's probably a big motivating factor for why a lot of folks do jump more to the theological, less toward the, the more abstract story form of, I think that can be true.
I also think that, um, and maybe this tags onto it. I think it gets straight to the questions that people have that a lot of times, um, um, and, and this is sort of like the influence of enlightenment rationalism on the, on the Western culture that people are asking questions about. Sort of, um, maybe about metaphysical things, metaphysical realities.
And if you're broaching a topic from that perspective, [00:51:00] like maybe you started the conversation from the perspective of, you know, do you believe in like an eternal soul and you started the conversation from there and okay, do you, do you believe in a heaven and hell then? Or do you believe in, you know, or whatever.
Right. And a lot of times people will say, sure, I guess I do believe that. Some people are going to a good place, bad place, you know? Um, okay. What do you think determines whether you go to which place? And then you get people talking about that and that's, becomes your inroads to, to share the gospel with them.
Um, then maybe the, you know, if that's, then maybe to, to start with something, I think, I think because we, Our culture is used to having questions that start on the philosophical theological level, rather than on the storied level. I think that has made, uh, made the conversation start from that perspective.
One of the things that I think is funny though, is [00:52:00] that I don't think people are that comfortable having theological and philosophical conversations anymore. Uh, nearly on the level that they used to be. And yet the church is right. Don't talk about religion and politics. Like that's all taboo. Yeah. And yet the, well, and yet telling stories is actually a very comfortable thing to do now that people love to do.
And so the world has changed back to a storied culture. And yet we haven't, we haven't changed our processes in the church back to a storied process. So again, what I'm trying not to say in this is that these things are. Always wrong in every way. I actually think the truths that were presented in them are basically right.
Even if I don't always like the wording of them, I'm just, I'm just arguing that they're, they're not real effective. Um, yeah, so I think that I also think that. When we do have, as Christians, I think that sometimes we get jaded [00:53:00] about the story. So if we're already believers, the, we're so used to reading the gospels because those are the easy books to read.
And so we get used to the stories. We already remember those. We've read, we've read Mark and Matthew and Luke and John a bunch of times. Well, maybe not John, John's actually harder to read, but like the other ones, we've read those a bunch of times. We know all those stories really well. We actually get more excited about reading Paul and the formulation of doctrine and stuff like that.
And so that becomes more of a go to, like thinking about the more philosophical questions becomes like more of our way of thinking about our faith when somebody who's not a believer yet actually needs to go back to square one and think about the story. And so in a way, sometimes we've moved on and we've forgot where people need to start.
And so I think that can be part of it too. Yeah, which i'm sure we're going to unpack in future. Yeah, and actually I think uh, I [00:54:00] think that if I think that we probably shouldn't be too hasty Uh to move on from the story that some of us might move on from the story a bit hastily Um that there's a lot more to the story than uh Then I think that Most people realize.
And so, yeah, gospel is pretty big. It is bigger than you think. Let's try not to abuse that, but yeah, good talk, Cody. And I appreciate you, brother. And, uh, um, I think that's a great spot to stop our conversation today and we'll continue talking about, uh, the gospel, what the gospel is, what it does, and keep fleshing this out, uh, on our next [00:55:00] [00:56:00] podcast.
