#10 The Gospel as Story

Show Notes

In this episode, The Gospel as Story, Anthony and Jami discuss the narrative elements of the Gospel. We’ve already talked about what the Gospel isn’t and what a Gospel is. In The Gospel as a story, we unpack some of the ways that the Gospel is presented in the scriptures and the Church Fathers and comment on the differences with the way the Gospel is presented today.

Music: Nightfall by SoulProdMusic

Podcast Transcript

Anthony Delgado: This light momentary affliction is preparing an eternal weight of glory for us beyond all comparison as we look not to the things that are seen but to the unseen, 2 Corinthians 4, 17 18. In a post materialistic world filled with immense spiritual noise, we're here to uncover the ancient Near Eastern context of the Bible to recover the truly mystical faith of our spiritual forefathers. Welcome to Biblical Re Enchantment Podcast, where we bridge the gap between the ancient Hebrew story And modern insights. I'm Anthony Delgado, your host for this journey into the often overlooked mystical dimensions of the Bible.

Jami Delgado: And I'm co hosting for the first time on the biblical re enchantment podcast, I'm Jamie Delgado.

Anthony Delgado: This is episode number 10, the gospel story. we've already taken a look at what the gospel isn't and what a gospel is not the gospel, but what a gospel is. And today we're going to talk about the gospel as story and unpack some of the ways that the gospel is presented in the scriptures and in other places. So the first thing I want to do is Go to what I think is the obvious place to go, uh, to the books of the Bible that we call the gospels. And, uh, and we do, we do believe that the gospel is Jesus story and that wherever we find Jesus story in the scriptures, that's where we're going to find the gospel. And so as we look to the gospel accounts, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And I guess the beginning of the book of acts do we see, um, some of the story, the direct story of Jesus and then more of the story of Jesus showing up in the book of revelation and then spattered throughout other places. when we look to the gospels, they really are story and, uh, What one thing that I've noticed is that what I grew up hearing as the gospel, this idea that, well, Jesus died for your sins.

And that means that you've forgiven been forgiven. And then, you know, the doctrine of justification and all of that type of stuff that's been presented as the gospel that actually most of that short of a few of the narrative details, most of that is absent from the gospel accounts themselves.

Jami Delgado: Yeah, I had a similar experience, you know, as a child being presented the gospel. I was definitely not presented the whole story of Jesus. It was more like, you know, I think I was like eight years old the first time I remember hearing it. And I just remember. You know, the presentation going something like, Hey, have you ever done bad things in your life and things you feel bad about?

And of course, you know, as a kid, I felt guilty for the times I had lied or disobeyed my parents. So I said, yeah, yeah, I definitely have. And he said, wouldn't you like an opportunity to be forgiven those sins by God and Jesus died so that you can be forgiven of those sins and be. Um, and then God will be in your life again.

And that sounds great. So I remember raising my hand as a little eight year old and, you know, receiving Christ, but I did not have this whole, not even part of the story of Jesus. It was just like, God was. Wanting to do something to help me not feel bad about the things I had done I think that's like the whole story that I got and again when I was a teenager

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Which is good and right and true. Um, but it's, but it's just not. It's just not sufficient. I remember cause we did youth ministry for, you know, a decade plus.

Jami Delgado: Mm hmm.

Anthony Delgado: just remember having these types of conversations with our teens where they'd be like, why did Jesus have to die?

That seems, you know, like the, like maybe as a small child, you know, children are just willing to take what they're told. But like, uh, by the time, you know, you get older children and teenagers and certainly adults, it seems like such a ridiculous thing to say, like, well, Jesus died so that you would be forgiven of sins.

It's like, well, that seems like. Extreme majors, you know, like all of the theology and all of the thinking that surrounds that is it's completely lost because you don't have the rest of the story.

Jami Delgado: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: little piece. Jesus died.

Jami Delgado: Yeah, and I think you know, obviously we got other parts of the Bible during other lessons and stuff But it was just all so disconnected and really hard to put together as a child and I don't think I really had a focus Full grasp of that until I was an adult, even, even as a teenager, I think I still had a very reductionist idea of Jesus story.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Well, and I'm not even sure that like, a lot of times that church leaders are always to present a larger story and to answer some of those questions. Like part of the problem with translating pistis is faith in the new testament is that yeah. The original meaning of that word, which we'll talk about more in the episodes to come, but the original meaning of faith, um, kind of gets hijacked and, and the, and the word starts to mean, well, you just have to like blindly trust, you know, and that, that your sins are forgiven and just believe the Bible, even though Parts of it don't make sense.

And it's like, well, yeah, but if you took the time to know the story, it makes a whole lot more sense. And we see it actually in practice in the rest of the new Testament. there's a lot of places in the new Testament that, uh, that we do see the gospel being presented as story.

Jami Delgado: Yeah. And you definitely see that in the gospels because the gospels are, are like a story arc that we would recognize, right. Where there are characters are introduced and then there's some sort of con not a conflict, but yeah, conflict is introduced. There's some rising action that happens. Eventually there's a conflict.

There's a climax and then some, you know, some wrap up after that.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because when you get to. Like the Book of Acts, for example, see things like the Apostle Peter, and it's actually really interesting when you look at Peter's sermon at Pentecost, because the tradition is that Mark wrote the Book of Mark based on Peter's Bye. Telling of stories about Jesus.

And so if you've ever thought like Mark is shorter, it's a little disorganized. Um, this is why, because Mark was just trying to put together the stories that Peter was telling. However, he was telling them. uh, the other gospels might be a little bit more robust because some more craftsmanship went into them, but then obviously Peter does know the story because then he presents the story there in Acts chapter two.

Did you want to. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Jami Delgado: Yeah. Um, I, I was thinking about all the different pieces of Jesus story and how Peter does a pretty good job of condensing it in his sermon on Pentecost. He starts with, um, he starts with like talking about some. Prophecy and reminding everybody of the prophecy that about Jesus and then it's like he he goes all over the different parts He says what happened to Jesus why it happened to him and that he was raised that he was Um, gosh, I'm losing my spot here.

So like he was raised and that he is Lord. He's enthroned on David's throne that, and that everyone should give him allegiance. And so he kind of hits like all the little parts about him being creator, about him being the one who's taking David's throne and about how he died and how he rose and that he is Lord.

I mean, he's kind of hitting a lot of those pieces. Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And, and I think it's interesting too, because not only does Peter do this, but it seems to be the pattern of apostolic profession, because then you get to, you know, the stoning of Stephen in Acts chapter seven and Stephen, Stephen does something similar, except I think something that's interesting about what Stephen does is he actually goes back to Abraham.

Jami Delgado: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: he and he begins to tell the story from the Old Testament perspective, which we'll talk here in a minute about the gospel in the Old Testament. But we do see this where it from from the Old Testament. Uh, he goes to Abraham and starts to tell the story of God. Like if you can't understand the promise made to Abraham and Stephen's mind, uh, you can't understand the story of Jesus.

And so to say that Jesus died for your sin, I mean, just incredibly ridiculous to Stephen. Um, he's got to go back to Abraham and start talking about the promises of God and the covenant of God. And he's got to talk about and Moses and David. And he traces this all the way, essentially up.

Jami Delgado: Yeah, he's like, um, telling, he's not short on words at all. He's, uh, definitely telling like the story of these men of faith and how they were, You know, they were men of faith and they were counted righteous because of their faith toward God and Israel's disobedience and how they just didn't hear. They weren't there to hear the truth.

And just like they didn't hear the truth of Moses and they didn't hear, you know, hear the truth of, uh, you know, Abraham and Moses and all the other prophets in the same way, he compares all of those times to just like how they missed the righteous one or the anointed one at this time. Amen.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And, and, and I just love these words in Acts seven, where Stephen wraps up his presentation. know, uh, he ends, he ends his presentation on sort of the gospel from the old Testament, the promises to Israel and all of that. And in Acts seven, starting at 51, he says, you stiff neck people with uncircumcised hearts and ears. You are always resisting the Holy Spirit as your ancestors did. You do also. And Which of your of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the righteous one there. He means Jesus, the Messiah, who, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become. You received the law under the direction of the angels and yet didn't have not kept it. And this is, this is the craziest thing that he's going to go to the Torah, the law of Moses, which by the way, Jesus also does in Matthew chapter five in the sermon on the mount, when he says, I didn't come to abolish the law, but fulfill it.

And then he illustrates the way that the kingdom of God operates under the Holy Spirit, um, to fulfill the law. But anyway, that's, that's a, that's a lot more than to say here, but this is what Stephen's thinking. He's like, just like you killed the prophets that prophesied about the Messiah. Now you've killed the messiah himself, you know,

Jami Delgado: Mm hmm.

Anthony Delgado: that's

Jami Delgado: Right. He's tracing the pattern of the story. He's seeing the pattern play out over and over again with the people of Israel and all the, all the prophets that the, that God sent to them.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Yeah. And it's really interesting because we do this a lot and we hear this a lot, especially around Christmas around Easter. We're talking about the foreshadowing of things in the Old Testament. And we do. We often talk about. in the prophets that point forward to Jesus. And I think there's good reason to believe that many of the, many of the Jewish religious leaders recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

Um, and yet they seem to have willingly rejected him. Like, like we don't get too much insight into their psyche, but like, almost like they just didn't like what the coming of the Messiah meant for the way that they were ordering the You know, Israelite society. And so they weren't willing to have it. And that's, you know, somewhat speculative, but that seems to be the case. but the old Testament prophets, they do talk about. You know, the man of sorrows, and they do talk about the so much about the coming of this character that is the Messiah you know, a lot to do here, but this whole development of what we would call the messianic profile, like how did the, you know, because we don't see the word Messiah, at least in English, very clearly, or even the topic of Messiah. Clearly addressed in the Old Testament. And yet by the days of Jesus, we can very clearly see it in the early New Testament documents that they were expecting a Messiah. And so where does that come from? And so they knew this, they saw it in the, the story of Jesus in the Old Testament prophets, and they anticipated his coming. And it's only because they anticipated his coming that they were then able to reject him. Otherwise they wouldn't have wanted him killed. He was just another cult leader or something like that, which they had plenty of in those days. Um, it was

Jami Delgado: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: because they saw him as. The righteous one. And then they walked in the same pattern of their forefathers and persecuted the Messiah.

Jami Delgado: Yeah. They saw him that, but they didn't, they, once they realized he wasn't coming there to do what they thought he was coming there to do, I think that that was the, that was the trigger for them.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And so we see, see in the prophecies, we see Jesus story. We see it in the new Testament as it's being, as the story of Jesus is being recounted. We obviously see it in the gospels, but then actually there's a sense in which we can see Jesus story and all of the old Testament, Luke 24, 27. This is the, Jesus is walking, uh, with his disciples after the resurrection. And, and he says, and it says, and beginning with Moses and all the prophets, Jesus interpreted to them. And all the scriptures, the things concerning himself and our minds have to can go wild. Like, what is, what does that mean? But it seems to me that he probably went through all of the significant texts of the old Testament and he's like, yeah.

So when, when the, when the Lord Yahweh appeared with Abraham, like that was me. Right. And these sorts of things, like pointing out these, these places in. The old Testament that he indeed appeared, uh, and, and demonstrated himself, not, not always in tangible ways, like with Abraham, but in patterning and symbolic ways that he shows up all throughout the story of the old Testament. And I think that's, again, why Steven can go back and start from Abraham and trace this story forward to Jesus. Uh, he can do that because there's a symbolic understanding of all of it. That was, In the forefront of their minds at that time. Uh, so yeah, we've mentioned Old Testament prophecies, but let's talk a little bit more about where we see Jesus in the Old Testament. have a word that we use for appearances of God in the Old Testament. And when we mean appearances, we don't mean where he shows up in the story, but where he actually appears to men. And so the word is Theophanies. it comes from this, uh, Greek word that means, that's the Greek word phaenine, which means appearance, and then theos, which means God.

So theos, phaenine, theophany, and it's, it's an interesting, it's interesting that we have this word. Uh, because of within the Trinitarian framework, if you see God, that means that you've seen the son of God, the second person

Jami Delgado: Right. Cause like, how can we see God if God is spirit? How do we see God? Right. Right. Right.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Well, and yeah, that's, that's exactly it. Colossians 1 15. Paul says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So if you're having, you know, and we realize that there's places like Daniel seven, where you get the father and the son interacting in a scene and they both appear to be visible, but we have to, we have to let that Sort of work intention because it's a, it's a pattern.

It's a, a projection. It's prophetic. Um, we don't get that same thing in revelation 21 and 22. We don't get the father on a throne sitting next to the sun. We only get the sun sitting on the throne. So like, like when we, there's, there's ways to part that we have to parse those scenes symbolically to understand why the father would be present with the sun. Um, and it's because of the exchange that's taking place there in Daniel seven. But properly speaking within a Trinitarian framework, we're not going to see the father. only going to see the son. So when we see Yahweh appear the old Testament, we say, well, that's, that's a, that's actually what we would call a Christophany, which again, so it's Christ anointed one Messiah, uh, or Christos and that same modifier, Phanine, Christos, Phanine, Christophany.

And so we get appearances of Jesus in the old Testament. And that, and that does admittedly flow from our Trinitarian framework that we have in the New Testament, uh, but then it could be clearly seen in the Old Testament where God does appear, um, to have a, an influence spiritually in some passages, and then a, and sometimes even to speak in some passages, but not be seen, and then he appears visibly in other passages.

I think when places we see that most clearly, And we're not going to go through it in detail right now. But like one place we see that most clearly is in the story of Gideon. Um, Gideon is having a conversation with, with God sort of in a spiritual sense. He's hearing the voice of God, whether that's booming from the heavens or it's, or it's, or it's happening in more of a prayer or, uh, sort of like in a, in a vision, but. You know, that type of thing, like that he's having an experience of the voice of God, but then Yahweh appears in physical form and then

Jami Delgado: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: in physical form, he disappears, and then he continues this conversation with God spiritually and because the voice of God is still present. And so it's almost as if, uh, the father and the son are present in that narrative. In order to convey the meaning that they need to convey to get in. So it's so that's one of the places that we sort of see a Christophany next to, um, the invisible father, you could say.

Jami Delgado: Right. And is this fair game? Because, I mean, that's not the right turn of phrase to use, but is this because, you know, we can do this because Jesus himself says, you know, no one has seen the father, but then somewhere he says, um, but if now I'm telling you, if you've seen me, you've seen the father, right.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And that's the book of john that that sort of principle actually shows up in a number of places in john and, uh, In the gospel of John. And I think, yeah, that's exactly the way to think of it. That Jesus isn't saying I'm a man who represents the father, but rather I and the father are one, if you have seen me, you have seen the father. And so it's to disambiguate, uh, this idea of a plurality of gods. He's saying, no, no, no, this is, this is what the father looks like in, in a way that you can conceive of him, you know, and within the physical sphere, um, when God. You know, that's not the right mode to speak in Greek. But anyway, when God appears, um, then you get the Christ. And so that's, that's the way that it's seen. And we could, we could probably talk about what it means that God is invisible. Um, but have, you know, we, we sort of have to reflect on this. Concept of creation and think, well, if God created all things and vision belongs to the physical universe, then you start to get an understanding of what it means that that that the father, in a sense, is invisible because we don't expect that if God appears within the creation as the sun, that that means that In whatever sense, he exists invisibly that he has ceased to exist.

That's it's a, it's an ancient heresy that we call today. We call it modalism we would think that God stepped out of his uncreated invisible. Not that he's invisible. It's not even

Jami Delgado: into Jesus, right? Right. That kind of idea.

Anthony Delgado: into Jesus within the physical space. And he no longer exists as the invisible father.

Jami Delgado: Mm hmm.

Anthony Delgado: I think that we get some of that stuff just because of the limitations of human language.

Like it's hard to we can't actually say that God is invisible. Technically, that's an analogy to explain what it means that we can't see God, least proper the father. We can't see him. But to say that he's invisible is an analogy because is neither visible nor invisible. Like it's not, visibility is something that belongs to the created order.

Jami Delgado: Right.

Anthony Delgado: the degree that God is, he is neither invisible nor, nor visible. And that just, you know, we don't want to get too philosophical right here, but for that reason, we can only say that he's invisible and An analog, you know, as, as an analogy to

Jami Delgado: To explain.

Anthony Delgado: see the father,

Jami Delgado: Right, right.

Anthony Delgado: but then when he does appear now, we say, well, that's the son and we understand that, that it's an appearance of the Christ and, and the early church got this, you know, I don't know why we have so much trouble with this.

The early church got this. Um, it, it, you know, it shows up in the creeds and in the, you know, the early discussions of the early church councils, uh, yeah. But you might say not everybody likes the creeds, you know, people will say well the early church creeds Those are those are sort of human inventions and especially within like, know, some staunch Protestant circles, you know No, it's scripture only and we can't we're not going to take into account the screeds and and it's like yeah but wouldn't you want to know how they were interpreting the scriptures in the first century in the second century in the fourth century in The 10th century like it is not helpful like

Jami Delgado: Yeah. So what's the point of a creed? Like, why did they even create these things? What were they useful for?

Anthony Delgado: Well, so that's a, that's a really good question because it actually goes back to the way that sort of education worked within the Jewish framework, sort of dating back to, uh, probably into deeply into Old Testament times, you know, uh, that if you wanted to remember a doctrine, for example, you wanted to remember a reality or teach that reality, it was better to teach it through story, uh, what happened rather than what is. And so, for example, it's easier to talk about the Trinity rather than trying to parse, how is it that God is three and yet one, rather than try to parse that, it's easier to talk about the Trinity as no, but we know God is father and we know God is because of this story and we know God is son because of this story and we know God is spirit because of this story and we, yeah.

And then we can take certain teachings like Deuteronomy six, the Shema, the Lord, our God is one, right? And we can understand the oneness of God, the wholeness of God, um, in light of his appearance as father, son, and spirit, his, his, his coming in three persons or his, uh, or his, his, his essence in three per existing within three persons.

Jami Delgado: Yeah, I think you're onto that because, you know, the modern, the modern thinker, we're so obsessed with like knowing all the parts and how they work together and taking everything down to its smallest piece. I mean, isn't that what physics is trying to do is break? Our material world down to its very smallest pieces so that they can understand the meaning of everything.

But they're finding, you know, that they can't really figure out the meaning by breaking something down into its smallest pieces. But our modern thinking is like that. I think that's why we're so obsessed with parsing out these ideas. But the, you know, the ancient mind didn't really care about that sort of thing.

They, they really, a lot of their existence was based on story. That's like all the history, all their culture, all their, All surrounded on story.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And what you're hitting on is the difference between biblical theology and systematic theology. Systematic theology is going to, and we've talked about this in previous episodes, but systematic theology is when we're going to try to sort of philosophize about the story. And we're going to try to, we're going to try to ask questions and probe at the story by asking questions that come from outside the story itself. Biblical theology is taking the biblical meta narrative. Well, it's really taking. like to differentiate between the mega narrative and the meta narrative. The mega narrative is the grand narrative of redemption that exists from Genesis to Revelation. It's the big story, and I

Jami Delgado: The big story. Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: story and get this big story. And that big story is sort of the foundation of biblical theology. We do biblical theology on, on smaller scales, too. You can do a biblical theology of Esther. You can, Look at one single book or one unit of theology, or you can look at one thread of thinking that flows through the Megan a or whatever, like biblical theology can happen on a smaller scale, but you're always trying to deal with the whole whatever that whole narrative within the scriptures is, and you're not leaving the scriptures to probe questions that come from outside of the scriptures.

And that's why we can't say things like, Yeah. You know, that's why, you know, and so the Trinity properly speaking is not a biblical theological observation, but it's a system. It's a, it's a question of systematic theology. it's, it's using questions that come from the outside.

Jami Delgado: Right. So, but with biblical theology, we could still do analysis, right? We would still analyze the story. We could break it into parts in that sense and look at different areas and ask questions about it, but it's different. The systematics is asking more outside questions. Like you said, more philosophizing or, um, it's a different sort of analysis.

Is that what you're saying?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, it's a different kind of an analysis that relies on outside thinking. So biblical theology. I suppose if we, if we stopped with our biblical theology at the mega narrative, that wouldn't actually be theology at all. That would just

Jami Delgado: Right.

Anthony Delgado: studies. That would just be, you know, what does the text say? we differentiate between the mega narrative and the meta narrative and the meta narrative meta means alongside or above or beyond. And so to say that, that there is a meta narrative is to say that there is a, that there is a thinking or a, uh, that, that, or a narrative, a storyline that exists above or alongside the mega narrative.

And this is where we're getting into some analysis where things exist from God's perspective. Um, and he, you know, and we're asking the questions of why is this story told this way? We're not going outside, but we're just asking questions of the text. Why is the story told this way? And that's where biblical theology really develops.

Yeah.

Jami Delgado: be a silly illustration, but, um, if you're a child of the eighties, nineties, you would have maybe watched the movie, the never ending story, right? And this is an example of maybe what you're talking about, where there's an, there's a narrative that's alongside the other narrative, right?

So in the movie or the book, if you've read the book, which I highly recommend the, you Reading this story, he finds this story in an old like used bookstore called the Never Ending Story. He starts reading it, but as he's reading it, he's finding himself in the story at the same time. So it's kind of this way the author is illustrating how there's like two stories that are always happening.

There's the story, what it says, but then there's also this meta narrative or this alongside story that happens at the same time.

Anthony Delgado: I think that's actually a really good illustration. And, um, now I'm curious, like, was that, was that intended to be an illustration of this

Jami Delgado: Oh, totally. Totally.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. That, that, you know, was it, was it a biblical observation? So the early church used story because the story was something that reminded The truths it pointed you from the narrative to the meta narrative to the story that land, you know, that exists alongside. And 1 thing I want to say about it is like, on 1 hand, we should be able to remember truths apart from the story and maybe, but maybe that's just something that belongs to our society today where we're used to reading books and being able to look up. Like I guarantee you every preacher out there when they decide they're going to talk in a sermon about the Trinity, that they go restudy it and take some notes, um, that even those who are supposedly trained have to go back to the sources in order to present that material because we're afraid we're not going to present it accurately and someone's going to say we're a heretic or whatever.

Right? So we want to make sure we're accurate about that. Ask me how I know, you know what I mean?

Jami Delgado: It's really hard to talk about the Trinity. I've tried. Mm hmm. Mm

Anthony Delgado: you do it from a biblical theological perspective, where you say, well, the Trinity is that God exists in the Three persons, but there is one God and then you simply go to the scriptures. This would be biblical theology to simply go to the scriptures and demonstrate from the scriptures that there is a father.

There's a son. There's a Holy Spirit that they

Jami Delgado: hmm.

Anthony Delgado: There is one God and that the testimony of the of the scriptures, according to the story that's told us there's one God. But look at how you. Um, look at how God comes into the story as father here and as son here and as spirit here.

Jami Delgado: Right.

Anthony Delgado: in spite of the fact that he is one God.

And so

Jami Delgado: You don't have to explain how it works. Just show.

Anthony Delgado: this

Jami Delgado: Mm hmm.

Anthony Delgado: ice and nonsense, you know, and all

Jami Delgado: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: like, it's just,

Jami Delgado: The sun, the warmth, and the light. Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: right? And so story has, it has the ability to drive our doctrine. In a way that when we start to ask those systematic, those outside questions, we lose some of it.

Jami Delgado: Gotcha.

Anthony Delgado: and so let's look at some of the creeds. I want to start first with the scriptural creeds. These are creedal statements that shows up in the Bible where they're going to remind of doctrine based on The story. do you want to

Jami Delgado: So were these like in the scriptures, were these some of the early ways that they were trying to remember parts of the story for like pedagogical purposes?

Anthony Delgado: well, so a lot of these, I think the ones that we're going to go over today, they're all the apostle Paul and, you

Jami Delgado: Mm hmm.

Anthony Delgado: and and the reason I like the apostle Paul for this is because he's, he's our theological thinker, you know, he's doing more, you know, Westerners want to do poly Pauline study because he's thinking more like we are. But I want to show that he is assuming all of the narrative. He's assuming the narrative of the old Testament. He's assuming the gospels and acts like he's assuming the story. And he points to places in the story to show you where the doctrine develops from. And

Jami Delgado: Mm hmm.

Anthony Delgado: of the scriptural creeds is to say that even the apostle Paul isn't going to do systematic theology in a box.

He's going to point to the tangible elements of the story itself and say, and therefore, because of this, this is true.

Jami Delgado: Gotcha. So we see some of this in Romans verses 10, nine, uh, where he says, Jesus is Lord. And also Jesus rose from the dead.

Anthony Delgado: Mhm. Mhm.

Jami Delgado: So some really important aspects of the story there. And then also in first Timothy two, five, he says, the man, Jesus. Christ is God and the man Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. So pointing to some things that Jesus was doing and is doing right. So because the man Jesus Christ is God, uh, and then we're going to look at Philippians two here in a second. And he rose to the right hand of the father. Therefore he is the mediator between God and man. And so he's pointing to Jesus work. And I like this one because he's not pointing to what Jesus has done so much as what Jesus is doing right now. He's

Jami Delgado: I write.

Anthony Delgado: the story. Mhm.

Jami Delgado: Yeah. Now that he's, um, now that he's gone to be with the father, he is the mediator and that's also, he's like, you said, he's assuming so much information because he's talking about how Jesus is the high priest here. And you. pointing to all those other high priests and their purpose in Israel, right?

Anthony Delgado: Right. And then we get the Christ hymn in Colossians. I'm sorry, in Philippians two, if you want to read that one.

Jami Delgado: So Philippians two, six through 11, we have several different statements here. We have Jesus existed in the form of God before being born on earth. And Jesus did not consider himself equal to God. Jesus emptied himself by assuming the form of a human, a servant. Jesus came to earth as a man. Jesus humbled himself by being obedient to the point of death on the cross.

God highly exalted Jesus and gave him the highest seat of authority. Every human and spiritual being will submit to Jesus office in heaven, on earth, and in Hades, or Sheol, the grave. And every human and spiritual being will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Anthony Delgado: Right. So this is, you know,

Jami Delgado: a lot packed in there.

Anthony Delgado: there is a lot packed in there and, and we can point to so all of the things before that, you know, before Jesus ascension, well, actually up to Jesus ascension, we clearly see in the gospels and acts. And then Paul is, Drawing on his understanding of the story, uh, to demonstrate some things that will happen in the story future to him.

And so it's very much storytelling. And what's interesting about this is that. It's called a hymn and hymns in the ancient world are doctrinal songs. And so that's why we call them hymns today. Although when we say hymns, we mean those old songs that belong in the dusty books. But yeah, I mean, but, when truth be told, when you open most hymnals, you're going to find a lot of things in there that aren't hymns that are not doctrinal songs, but I mean, a good two thirds to three quarters of most of the hymnals I own, um, at least, or that I've used throughout the years are hymns. doctrinal songs. They're teaching the story and the doctrines of the Christian faith through song. And so that was a way that they did it in the Old Testament, not just the story, but also the song. And it helps you remember these truths.

Jami Delgado: Yeah, I think we've known from, you know, ancient times that putting something to music is an amazing way to remember something. I mean, even still, I, I remember songs, scripture songs that my mom played for me when I was a kid and I can still remember those scriptures because they were put to music. And so it makes sense that the early church would have these hymns.

Of doctrines, important teachings that they wanted everybody to learn and everyone to kind of be on the same page on it was, it was a catechesis.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, it definitely was. And so, uh, and, and, you know, there's so much more in the New Testament that we could go through first Corinthians 15 Colossians one, you know, you can go look at these and just go through Paul's letters and you can find tons of this. But what I want to show is that the early church actually picked up on this patterning and the early church just, you know, Rather than focusing on the explanation of the doctrine or the explanation of the narrative they focused on the doctrine itself Look at the Apostles Creed.

I'll read that It's pretty short. I believe in God the Father Almighty did what what happened in the story creator of heaven and earth? I believe in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord What about him? Well, he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, he descended to hell, on the third day he rose again from the dead, he ascended to heaven, he is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from there, what is he gonna do?

He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church. That's what's happening now. The communion of saints. That's what's happening now. The first forgiveness of sins. That's what's happening now. The resurrection of the body. That's what's going to happen in the life everlasting.

That's what comes after the resurrection of the dead. So all of this in the Apostles Creed, almost every word of it, not the extrapolation of the doctrine or of the tea of the story, but the story itself. And this was, this is our. Oldest creed from the early church, demonstrating what it was necessary to be believed as a follower of Jesus.

Jami Delgado: I mean, but really you could use this as an outline to tell the story of Jesus. Really it's kind of like an outline. It starts at the beginning. God, the father created heaven and earth, right? And then sent his son and what happened to his son and then what's going to happen and what are we looking forward to the end?

So it really can. serve as an outline in that way.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And I would even say, you know, cause we kind of poked and criticized, uh, not necessarily the truthfulness, but the, but the use of many of these modern gospel presentation approaches. And we've, we've kind of, you know, probed at that in the last episode. I would say that if you were looking for a way to present the gospel that was somewhat concise, this might serve as a framework for that. maybe

Jami Delgado: think you could use just this, but yeah, you could, like you said, a framework or you can fill in some blanks here, but use this to help you

Anthony Delgado: Yeah.

Jami Delgado: guide your.

Anthony Delgado: in the story, right? It's the key places in the story. And so, yeah, there are other things. You may notice that it doesn't talk about the fall of humankind. And so it doesn't answer the question about why humans are sinners and, uh, you know, where sinfulness came from or anything like that.

So there definitely are going to be other things that probably need to be talked about at certain points in time, this could be a, yeah, it could be a framework, a starting point. And I think even in the ancient world, this was considered to be a framework or a starting point. assumption was. That the story would remind you of the doctrine and it doesn't always, certainly it's a better place to start than with the doctrine itself. And I think the Nicene Creed does it also. Do you want to read that one?

Jami Delgado: Yeah. Let's see. Does this one do it? Um, give you a little bit more of a framework. Let's see the Nicene Creed. I believe in one God. The Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, God from God, light from light, true God from true God.

Begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, through Him all things were made. For us men, and for our salvation, He came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake, He He was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He suffered death and was buried and rose again on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the Father's right hand. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father. The son who with the father and the son is adorned and glorified who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in the singular holy Catholic and apostolic church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. And I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And so you see that there too, right? That it's basically a, it's basically story.

Jami Delgado: Yeah, there's a lot more here. I think that would work as a better framework because it talks about he, he came for our sake. Um. So much, so much more detail here, um, talks about him being king. So I think there's a lot more that you could use this as your framework and then just have a conversation as you go and let it remind you of other parts of the story as you're sharing.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, and we actually know from history that that's what was happening with these creeds that that they became part of the regular liturgy of churches, even in times when, uh, even in times when, until modern day, when we have print Bibles in every home and not just print Bibles, but now, you know, The, you know, digital Bibles and access to the scriptures on a ridiculous level. Um, short of just downloading the scriptures into your brain. Like, I don't know where we can go from here, but in, you know, you'd go back just a few hundred years and it becomes difficult now for people to have access. To these truths. And yet put the Nicene Creed in the liturgy of the church so that people can know the creed memory, you know, they're going to memorize it, whether they try to or not. And now they'll be able to like reiterate that and talk to people about their faith in a way that previous generations may have struggled to do so. And so the creed does actually serve that purpose and in history. And that's why it's so significant in the liturgy of the church.

Jami Delgado: Yeah. I, at the liturgies, they, a lot of, they say this Nicaean Creed like every week. So yeah, it would be memorized, like you said, whether they like it or not. And then they're also proclaiming the gospel every week

Anthony Delgado: Mm

Jami Delgado: by doing that.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And then we see, you know, and we're not going to get into all of this, but like we see creedal language showing up all over, not just the, not just the creeds themselves and not just in the scriptures, but all over the writings of the church fathers. So as you go for the, the first handful of hundred years, the handful of centuries of the church, you're going to see in these writings of the church fathers that are developing the early doctrine of the church, all of this. You'll see it in the Didache, Epistle of Barnabas, the, um, Polycarp, the Ignatius and Irenaeus. And you're going to see this, um, all over the place that the church fathers are really concerned about the story of Jesus, how the story of Jesus, um, interfaces with the story in the old Testament, um, both symbolically and as a progression of the covenants, they're very concerned about the story. Uh, know exactly. I have some theories about where that changed, but I suppose that's not the point of this podcast. So much is to say we need to be concerned about the story also. and so, yeah, we do. We do sort of get this idea a lot of this stuff. You know, a lot of the story, um, it, it serves to doctrine to the church. Um, and so we, we could actually, if we wanted to come up with kind of a synthesis, if we wanted to take all the creedal statements of the early church and the new Testament and try to put it all together. I don't think we're going to do that here. Um, but we could do that and try to sense of, or, you know, You might even call this a profile, a profile of the gospel of the story of God, the story of Christ in the scriptures.

And you could put that together. And, you know, I suppose that might be different from tradition to tradition, but we could do that, um, and try to put that together. So I guess as we, as we kind of start to move towards wrapping up here, um, I've kind of just got one question to discuss. How is the gospel or how is this gospel that flows from the story different from the gospel presentations discussed in the previous episodes?

What are we seeing as the most substantial difference?

Jami Delgado: The first thing that sticks out to me is that the story presentation of the gospel is about Jesus. Whereas the gospel presentations that I've. You know, experienced or been taught or someone tried to share with me are usually person like man based, like it's about you, the, uh, the person, um, and not that it shouldn't be.

It is that also, but I just feel like it's more than that. It's even more than that.

Anthony Delgado: I'm also fascinated with, um, sort of, Part one of the deep, like doctrinal deconstructions that happens. So again, I'm not anti systematic theology. I'm just pro biblical theology. I want our biblical theology to inform our systematic theology. And so I'm, I'm concerned about what happens to the Trinity also, like, I think you're right to say, like, They become person centric because now it's about how you can get back into God's, you know, good graces, so to speak.

Right. not only that, I think there's a deconstruction of the doctrine of the Trinity in that because now it becomes not about having an experience of Christ, which is actually the pinnacle of the scriptural story. Right. The scriptural story is about is about being restored to Christ's kingdom, and it's Jesus who's on the throne, and it's in

Jami Delgado: Right.

Anthony Delgado: Jesus that we look forward to. And yet, in most of these gospel presentations, the Romans wrote the ABCs of the gospel, stuff like this, what they sort of the pinnacle of those is. Um, being restored to God through Jesus, mind you, but Jesus becomes a worker in the invisible father's plan. I think that's part of the reason that, you know, we have this mistaken theology that eternity is a purely spiritual place. That it's not a, that the eternal kingdom of God is not, um, or we say heaven, right? And probably a conversation for another day, but heaven is not your eternal place. It is not your eternal abode. Heaven is, uh, a spiritual place that you go to in the intermediary state, our eternal goal is the kingdom of God physically manifest on the earth. Forever. And so that's where Christ is. Again, if we understand who Christ is, that's where Christ is. Um, he is the image of the invisible father and we disconnect him from the father when we make Jesus merely a means to be restored to the father. so I have a Sort of a doctrinal issue with what happens because of that,

Jami Delgado: Yeah. There's that. I think there's also the, um, like, um, because we're losing the kingdom in those, uh, in Most of those presentations that there's a disconnection between what that means for your life after you give your life to Jesus, right? It's it's it's more of a okay. Jesus is gonna fix this and I'm gonna go when I die I'm gonna go to heaven but there's there's there's a disconnect between what happens between now and I gave my life to Jesus, whatever that means and When I go to be with him in heaven, right?

What, where, where's the in between part? We lost that kingdom focus. So we don't have a king and we're still being Lord of our own lives.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, and and it's and you're right because the king the kingdom Really is a primary theme of the gospel at least as far as Jesus is concerned You know, it's all it's always about the kingdom of God is this and the kingdom of heaven is that right? He's always talking about the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven, which is really one in the same I think there's reasons that Matthew chooses a different Terminology.

But it's about the kingdom of God. It's the primary theme of the gospel story, Old Testament and new, I believe, the outcome of the gospel story is the eternal kingdom. And so that's actually what we're going to be doing. So, uh, in several upcoming episodes, we're going to focus on this theme of the kingdom of God. the next episode, which is episode 11, we're actually going to talk about the Old Testament, its place in the history of the New Testament interpretation, and its significance for how we think about the gospel and New Testament interpretation today. We'll talk about, uh, continuity and discontinuity, to what degree does the Old Testament, um, inform, progress to, or In what ways is it really the same story, really the same story, not two different stories. Is it really two testaments or do we really have one testament? You know, we're gonna have to deal with some of those things. Um, because I think it's necessary for understanding how we understand the Old Testament. from within the gospel framework and the new. And so we're going to do that in the, in, in episode 11, really actually focusing on the kingdom of God as we do that. And, uh, and then really getting into the kingdom of God narrative in the next couple episodes after that as well.

Jami Delgado: Sounds good.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Thank you for being on with me today. And, uh, we're going to go ahead and wrap it up right there.

Jami Delgado: All right. Thanks for having me.

Anthony Delgado: Absolutely.