Reclaiming the Historical Role of Pastor-Theologian in the Church

Theology
Written By Anthony Delgado

The historical role of the pastor-theologian emphasizes that pastors should not only shepherd their congregations but also serve as serious theological thinkers who engage deeply with Scripture and provide intellectual leadership for the church. In modern contexts, many pastors have been reduced to program managers and motivational speakers rather than theological leaders who shape their communities. Recovering the pastor-theologian model involves restoring a commitment to theological study, equipping believers with sound doctrine, and defending the faith with clarity and conviction. This approach resists the separation of theology from pastoral ministry and acknowledges the necessity of grounding pastoral work in Scripture, prayer, and rigorous theological engagement.

Nikoli Hrisov: Blessed Sunday, everyone. Welcome to the 128th episode, where we'll be discussing "Reclaiming the Historical Role of the Pastor-Theologian in the Church." We're welcoming back Pastor Anthony Delgado for the third time on the podcast, and for the first time ever, we're joined by Pastor John Dillon. John, as the new guest, maybe you can start by sharing a bit about your spiritual and theological background, your historical position, and your podcast.

Jon Dillon: Okay, my name is John Dillon. I pastor at Stillwater Community Church, north of Dayton, Ohio. I graduated from Appalachian Bible College back in the dark ages. I'm a Baptist minister by training, and I love Jesus a whole lot. I have to say, brother, I was really enjoying that intro—I was bouncing over here! I co-host the Two Trees Podcast with my friends Martin Lissner, Rose Moeller, and Jacob Kessling. We have a great time discussing Jesus. Right now, we're reading through the Gospel of Matthew together, and I’m excited to be here.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you so much for joining us. The moment you mentioned Appalachia and West Virginia, I immediately thought of the Mothman. As soon as you said West Virginia, I was like, "Oh yeah!"

Jon Dillon: The Mothman is a big deal back home in the mountains, but we have all kinds of ghost stories. Folklore is a real part of the culture in Appalachia. It's not something that comes up in casual conversation, but if you ask people, "Do you believe in this?" they'll say, "Absolutely not." And then they act as though they do. There's definitely a sense of being in between—neither fully North nor South—and we're quite proud of that. I love West Virginia, and I’ll defend it against anyone who speaks against it.

Nikoli Hrisov: Sounds good! Pastor Anthony Delgado, thank you for joining us again and blessing us with your presence. Every time we do an episode, it's such a blast—at least for me. Welcome back! If you could, please share with us once again your position, some background, and your website.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, absolutely. I'm Anthony Delgado, and I pastor a Southern Baptist congregation in Southern California called Palmdale Church. I have a pretty diverse theological background. My degrees are from Reformed schools—my bachelor's from Sterling College and my master's from Knox Theological Seminary. So, I have a strong history in the Reformed tradition, along with historical interests in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. My theological influences are broad, but I am a Baptist, pastoring a Baptist church.

I’ve written a couple of books—The Watchers and the Holy Ones and The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think.

Jon Dillon: By the way, you guys need to check out those books!

Anthony Delgado: I appreciate that, thank you. And speaking of stellar podcasts, you have to check out Two Trees! I only listen to a handful of podcasts these days because I’m knee-deep in research for my next book, but Two Trees is one I make sure not to miss.

I also podcast when I can. My show, Biblical Re-Enchantment, is something I put out periodically. Beyond that, I try to make a lot of resources available online. My website, anthonydelgado.net, serves as a hub for my work, including my mailing list. Some months, I focus more on articles; other months, I prioritize podcasting. The website helps people follow along with what I’m doing.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you for that! I just want to mention that I’ve included links to both of your websites and podcasts in the video description. I encourage the audience to support your work. We previously did an episode covering The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think, where we spent a couple of hours dissecting your book. That was such a great discussion. I especially remember the section where you spent two or three pages explaining what the Gospel actually is.

These days, we often hear a very narrow definition of the Gospel in churches, but you laid out a much broader biblical perspective. That was eye-opening. I always appreciate when authors spend time unpacking their theological viewpoints, providing historical and biblical backgrounds in a way that makes sense for the average Christian.

Before we dive into tonight's topic—the role of the pastor-theologian—can both of you share why it's important to recover this role for today’s clergy? Also, many churchgoers view theology as complex, expensive, or dry—something for academics rather than everyday believers. Why is this topic important for pastors, and why should the average Christian be encouraged to study theology?

Jon Dillon: Why don’t you take that one, brother?

Anthony Delgado: Sure. For me, this is a big question, so I appreciate the pause. I believe a significant part of pastoral ministry is actually a priestly function. In the Western church, we're very comfortable speaking prophetically, but prophecy doesn’t necessarily require thoughtfulness. The role of the pastor-theologian is crucial in truly speaking the word and the heart of God to the people.

A theologian is someone steeped in the logic of God—someone who understands and is deeply studied in His reason and wisdom. Throughout Scripture, we are constantly called to know God more. As a pastor, if I want to shepherd my people well, I need to do more than just read from the Bible in front of them. We live in a world where people are more skeptical. They recognize the diversity of denominations and ideas, and many aren’t even convinced that the Bible is God’s word. When they hear passages from, say, Chronicles, they might wonder what it even means.

My role isn’t just to deliver a prophetic message about what Scripture says but to reveal the why—the heart and mind of God behind the words. Today, I was studying Romans 9. I’m in the middle of a three-week series on the chapter, and the only upside is that I get to move on to Romans 10 next, which is nearly as challenging. These are hard passages. Some people agree with them, others don’t, but my role is to help people see the mercy of Christ poured out in them.

If all I do is present a theological system without showing the heart of God, I’ve failed. These passages are particularly challenging for me. Even though I was trained in Reformed schools, I’m not a Calvinist—or at least, the Calvinists say I’m not, and the Arminians say I am. Take that as you will. But at the core, people need to understand why Paul was saying these things to the Roman church. That’s a priestly function more than a prophetic one.

We’ve had generations of preachers who focus solely on proclaiming the what of Scripture, without unfolding the why. Perhaps, in our Baptist context, we’ve rejected the priestly function of the pastor. I don’t know if that fully answers your question, but to me, that’s central to today’s discussion.

Jon Dillon: For me, it comes down to what the pastor believes about the Bible. What is it? When I read Scripture, I cease to be alone. I believe these are the words of the Holy Spirit, spoken through men of God and recorded for His people—not just as information, but with purpose and design.

If a pastor’s role is reduced to telling a few cutesy stories, making people feel good about themselves, and inspiring good works, then he’s no different from anyone else. Everyone likes a good story, and we all need to do more good. But a pastor’s job is to feed the sheep. He has the unique calling and opportunity to spend extensive time reading and studying Scripture, and that should be reflected in his ministry.

When I study, I’m reading the Bible, fellowshipping with God, and hearing Him speak through the text. I want to understand what He’s saying. If it was important enough for God to write it, then it’s worth my time to understand it. But many pastors—and churches—avoid this because it’s difficult. Instead of wrestling with Scripture, they skip to the comfortable parts that make them feel good.

A pastor is called to be a workman, laboring in the Word. That doesn’t mean he has all the answers, but he should have a passion for teaching what he’s learning. I’m quick to tell my congregation that I’m not an apostle. God hasn’t appeared to me in a dream with a special revelation. I’m simply reading the text and sharing what I believe it means.

When the pulpit has a high view of Scripture, it’s reflected in the pews. I don’t believe people struggle with wanting to know the Bible—they have questions. But they’re often afraid to ask, either because they think their pastor won’t have an answer or because no one else seems to be asking. It’s our job to create an environment where these discussions happen.

We need to elevate Scripture—not just share opinions or denominational stances, but read the Word together, pray over it, and fellowship in it. That’s a central part of my ministry. In fact, it’s the part I love the most—teaching God’s Word and having the deep conversations that follow.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you. I really appreciate both of your input. I always love listening to pastors, priests, theologians, professors, and scholars because receiving more wisdom and knowledge brings joy to my spirit.

I want to clarify from the outset that tonight’s discussion is not about creating a false dichotomy. The purpose of this topic and the reason for inviting these two brothers is not to focus solely on the intellectual aspect of faith. Unfortunately, the intellectual side of Christianity has often been diminished over the centuries, especially after the Enlightenment. Of course, pastors should follow the criteria Paul lays out for Timothy. They should be filled with the Spirit, born again, and speak the truth in love.

Since tonight's discussion will be highly intellectual and theological, I hope no one assumes we are downplaying the work of the Holy Spirit or relying solely on intellect while denying the Spirit. It's not an "either-or" situation—it's both. I hope this is clear, especially for those who may be hesitant about studying theology. Theology is for everyone. Some say, "I just need the Holy Spirit," but the Holy Spirit won’t sit down and teach you Hebrew, Greek, historical context, or exegesis. He won’t do your cross-referencing for you or hand you historical and extra-biblical sources.

God never condones intellectual laziness. We must rely on the Holy Spirit, absolutely, but we also have a responsibility to study—reading books, engaging with theological articles, and working through difficult material. If something seems too complex or overwhelming, we can step away and return later as we grow in understanding.

I remember when I started reading more challenging theological works. One of the first books I picked up was by William Lane Craig, and it was so heavy that I barely understood half of it. That was humbling. I realized I needed to build a stronger foundation before tackling certain topics. So, I went back, learned the basics, and engaged with theological debates. Eventually, when I revisited that book, I understood much more—though not everything! But that’s the beauty of growth.

Tonight’s discussion does not neglect the Holy Spirit or the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The church has always had not only prophets and apostles but also theologians, teachers, and church fathers who devoted themselves to teaching. The role of a teacher in the church is essential and, I believe, anointed.

I was inspired by two books—The Pastor Theologian and The Four Traits of a Pastor—both of which I included in the video description. There are many other books on the subject, and we can’t cover them all in one episode, but perhaps we’ll do a sequel. My hope for this discussion is to encourage pastors and clergy to study more, reminding them that before the Enlightenment, most pastors were also theologians, and theologians were often pastors.

The modern divide between academic theologians and pastors didn’t exist in earlier church history. Theological education was rooted in the church, and universities were often tied to churches. Theological training and pastoral ministry went hand in hand. When I realized this, it was a beautiful discovery. That’s why I felt compelled to create this episode—not to judge or stir controversy but to encourage clergy in all traditions, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, to remain committed to studying and being open to where the Holy Spirit leads.

If you're a pastor or priest, I promise that deep theological study will bless your spirit and benefit your congregation. When you teach people the historical, cultural, and theological context behind their faith, they will appreciate it. Their faith won’t be a hollow shell or blind belief—it will make sense to them. They’ll say, “Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me.”

Before we move into the outline, Pastor Anthony and Pastor John, do you agree with what I’m saying? If there’s anything you disagree with, feel free to share your thoughts.

Jon Dillon: No, I think I agree with that. To me, this is a key part of what it means to do theology. Theology is about loving God—it’s thinking deeply about Him. That’s the heart of it. It’s not just about receiving gifts from God but wanting to understand Him more.

When God speaks, I don’t just want to accept it passively. I want to think about what He said. I want to ask, “What did You mean by that?” and pour myself into knowing Him. Studying theology isn’t just about being blessed; it’s about pursuing the depth of God’s revelation.

Scripture is inspired—God-breathed. That’s why I find it so strange when people claim that studying Scripture deeply means you’re somehow against the Holy Spirit. Who do they think inspired Scripture? This is the Holy Spirit’s work! When I study the Bible, I’m engaging in fellowship with the Spirit.

I don’t believe that God rambles. He speaks with purpose. My goal is to understand what He’s saying. Loving theology is a natural extension of loving God. It shouldn't be something we fear or think is only for scholars. Theology isn’t about appearing super smart—it’s a journey. God speaks big things because He is a big God, and I want to explore that.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, John. At Palmdale Church, we are liturgical, following a specific liturgy, and we are also very community-centric. That means our liturgy is largely not led by our pastors or elders—it’s led by the people of the church. We want everyone to participate in the reading of Scripture and in the prayers because we believe in the priesthood of all believers.

I often say that a good Sunday is one where the only thing I do is preach. Today was one of those Sundays where I didn’t have to take up another role in the liturgy, and that was awesome. What’s interesting is that when someone comes up to pray or read Scripture, we encourage them to prepare. Unless someone is very experienced in public prayer, we ask them to write out their prayers and practice reading Scripture aloud.

A lot of times, they’re reading lengthy passages—10, 12, sometimes 14 verses—and some of them write out deep, thoughtful prayers. That includes both men and women in our church. We encourage them to be intentional in their preparation. I always tell people that I believe the Holy Spirit works as much in my preparation as He does in my presentation.

What I love about our church is the thoughtfulness that people bring when they step up to lead in worship. It’s unparalleled in any church I’ve been part of. The Holy Spirit moves as they reflect on the Scripture, the songs, and the focus of that moment in the liturgy—whether it’s a time of adoration or confession. They weave all of that together, and the Spirit works in incredible ways.

As a pastor, when I go to preach—not that preaching is the only place where theology matters, but it is the most obvious—I want to be intentional. Extemporaneous preaching has its place, but we can’t be as thoughtful in the moment as we can be in the study. I want to have those deep conversations with the Holy Spirit about the text. If I were going to come on this podcast to discuss a book I wrote, I would prepare to help bring understanding to it. So why wouldn’t I go to God to talk about the book He wrote?

Jon Dillon: That’s right.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, exactly. I definitely agree with that.

Jon Dillon: I love what you mentioned there. Our church isn’t liturgical, but we emphasize shared participation. Ideally, I’m only in the pulpit to preach because my goal is to elevate others in the service. I want them to be involved. And as you said, the most important thing is emphasizing Scripture.

Preaching is the final step in a long, ongoing conversation I’ve been having with God about a text. I’ve been praying, studying, thinking—so the idea that God only moves when our mouths are moving is strange to me. God moves me when I’m reading, when I’m fellowshipping with Him, when I’m in prayer, and when I’m writing. The process is far bigger than just saying, “All right, God, my mouth is moving, so if You want to change something, You better do it now.”

This is about more than just standing up to speak. And honestly, this applies to all Christians. We are all called to make disciples and to reflect God’s image. But if you're in the pulpit, you should take joy in that calling. Let your heart be open to the Spirit as you read, study, and preach. Let His words wash over you. Ask questions, think deeply, and don’t treat preaching like giving a speech. If you make it about yourself, you lose something beautiful and sacred.

Anthony Delgado: That’s true.

Nikoli Hrisov: Yeah, thank you so much. Once again, we’ll be covering only one chapter from The Portraits of a Pastor—chapter four, titled "Pastor as Theologian." The way I envisioned this episode is that I’ll read some quotations from both books, and then my guests will comment.

Let’s start with this first quotation:

"Pastors have gone from being the key thinkers and leaders of the community to unnoticed and unwanted outsiders. The pastorate, as a vocation, has lost much of its essential identity and inherent glory. Pastors today feel impotent. They sense no great weight in their words. They feel as if they must add something to the Bible to draw a crowd and gain a hearing. It is understandable that a pastor feels discouraged today. There is only one source of true pastoral power—this source is the gospel of grace."

I don’t know if Pastor Delgado wants to go first since this is right in his wheelhouse…

Anthony Delgado: That’s crazy. Now I don’t want to say anything!

Jon Dillon: Oh, you're on, brother. Let's go.

Anthony Delgado: All right. Well, I sympathize with this because I grew up in the church, and even though I’m still fairly young—only 43—I remember a time when there was a deep reverence for pastors. One trend I’ve noticed, and I don’t know if this is a reaction to something, is that pastors themselves sometimes try to diminish their role and calling.

I did that for a long time. I resisted being called "Pastor Anthony" and avoided emphasizing my title. Even now, it’s not my habit. I didn’t even put "Pastor Anthony" on my display here.

Jon Dillon: Way to go—now you're self-conscious about it!

Anthony Delgado: (laughs) Actually, I did feel self-conscious when I saw yours. I was like, How do I change that? But seriously, I do think we have a role, and it can be frustrating when pastors—many of whom are highly educated, some with doctorate degrees—step out into the public sphere and are looked down upon simply because their degrees are in theology.

It’s the complete opposite of how it was for a time. And maybe this is just my sympathy for the apostolic fathers, but they actually lived in a world much like ours. Their voices were not considered intellectual or authoritative outside the church. They were scoffed at in the public square, and many were ultimately persecuted and martyred for insisting on speaking God’s truth.

We have come out of a golden age of Christianity in the West—actually, we’ve already come out of it. We no longer live in a culture that broadly respects Christianity. Our message is controversial. In a secularized and often anti-Christian culture, it makes sense that pastors wouldn’t be regarded highly in the world. But my concern is that we’ve also lost that regard within the church.

Some pastors have worked so hard to eliminate hierarchy in church governance—insisting that everyone’s opinion is equal to the point that they can no longer speak with theological authority. They’ve lost their voice even in the churches they are called to lead. That’s a warning for pastors.

And for those who aren’t pastors, whether your pastor insists on it or not, he should be respected for his work in service to the Lord. I’m a bivocational pastor. I work nearly full-time outside of church, yet I still spend eight to ten hours writing a sermon. That’s an incredible amount of time in the Scriptures, in thought, and in prayer. It’s preparation to feed the congregation.

Most of the time, when someone disagrees with the preacher, it’s not because they’ve done the study—it’s because they simply don’t like what was said. I always tell my congregation, “I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. Let’s get coffee and talk about it. But come prepared.” If the only reason for disagreement is, Well, I had a personal experience that makes me feel differently, that doesn’t hold up against the weight of Scripture. Congregations need to have a reverence for their pastors.

If a pastor is doing his job right in today’s culture, he will be respected within his church and looked down upon in the world.

Jon Dillon: Yeah. I grew up in Appalachia, where being a pastor is still an honored profession. There’s a lot of clout that comes with being in the clergy, and because of that, there are people who misuse the pulpit to elevate their own opinions or sense of self-worth. That has done real harm to the kingdom.

We divide into camps—"I like this preacher, I don’t like that one"—and it becomes about personal preference rather than a discussion of the actual biblical text. That’s a serious problem.

I don’t insist that people call me "Pastor John." I’m a full-time minister, and here in Ohio, sometimes people use the title, and sometimes they don’t. What really matters is not whether they say "Pastor John" but whether they see me as their pastor. That’s more significant than how they address me.

A lot of pastors get caught up in should we use titles or not. Anthony, were you ever a youth pastor?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, I was. For 11 years. That’s probably where this habit started.

Jon Dillon: (laughs) Exactly! Youth pastors in the '90s had to dress like the kids, talk like the kids, act like the kids. If you could play guitar and skateboard, you were guaranteed to be somebody. Every youth conference you went to, there was a pressure to fit a certain image.

And you know what? It’s exactly the same for senior pastors. Respectable pastors do this, so you do too. If you don’t, you must not be "serious." There’s a ridiculous amount of peer pressure. It’s all about image—what the real pastors do versus what the "goofy" pastors do. And that’s a problem because it shifts the focus away from what actually matters.

Do your people know that you are faithful in your study of Scripture? Are you showing them? Are you discussing God’s word with them? Because they’re not going to believe you just because you say you’re right. Everybody has an opinion. What matters is trust, and trust takes time to build.

If you approach ministry with the attitude, I’ve arrived; you must believe me, or If you question me, you’re against the Spirit of God, you’ve completely missed the point. Instead, a pastor should say, I’m going to show you my faith through my life.

Anthony, your approach—having the congregation participate in the liturgy, being bivocational but still fully committed to preaching the gospel—is a statement. Your people recognize that. But we live in a time when everything is up for debate. What is a male? What is a female? What is a pastor? What is truth? Can history be trusted?

Because of this cultural uncertainty, consistency, faithfulness, and humility are far more important than whether someone wears a clerical robe or has a title. John the Baptist said, He must increase, and I must decrease. The goal isn’t that people think I’m a great preacher—the goal is that through my ministry, they grow deeper in their love for Jesus.

Are you helping people do that? That’s what matters. And it’s about far more than just filling a pulpit on Sunday.

Doing theology isn’t just about preparing a sermon. It happens in hospital rooms. It happens in private devotional life. It happens in relationships—with your children, your spouse, your coworkers. Theology permeates who we are.

But we live in a world with a pop-culture version of Christianity. It’s all about looking cool, sounding relevant, and following trends. That’s just a shadow of the real thing. It won’t bring lasting transformation. Sure, God can use anything—He’s using me, so I know He can use you. But I don’t want to just be an obstacle in God’s way.

Jon Dillon: I want to join wholeheartedly in the kingdom. I’m in. Help me to do this. This becomes the quest of theology—I long to understand the word of my God so that I can live it, preach it, and make it part of who I am.

Anthony Delgado: Well said.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you for that. This chapter deals with 1 Timothy 1, so we’ll read some key passages that the author dissects.

He writes:

*"For Paul, the pastor is a theologian—a theologian serving Christ’s church, entrusted with the very oracles of God to save sinners and build up the faithful. There is a threefold elaboration in 2 Timothy 1:5-14 regarding what it means for the pastor to be a theologian. The first aspect is the attitude of the pastor-theologian: holy ambition, which Paul addresses in verses 5-7.

The pastoral deposit given by God is not passive—it must be fanned into flame (v.6), meaning that the instinct in young men to find a pulpit is fundamentally a good one. The God who is a consuming fire wants His creatures to burn with passion for Him. The pastor-theologian has spiritual ambition and strong, godly character."*

Pastor Delgado, can we briefly dissect what it means to have holy ambition—both for you as a pastor and for pastors in general?

Anthony Delgado: I honestly think this is a Christological question. Many pastors burn with passion for something—for tradition, for numbers, for a specific vision of what they want their preaching to accomplish.

Some pastors measure their success by outward appearances: If my congregation dresses a certain way, if I see them behaving a certain way in public, then maybe I’m doing okay. Others measure it by attendance: If I preach this way, more people show up, they bring their friends, and the church grows. Neither of those are inherently evil. In one case, the pastor’s preaching makes people feel good. In the other, the message is practical and applicable to their lives.

There’s nothing wrong with application—Scripture gives us wisdom for how to live. But I think this is a Christological issue because the real question is: What is being fanned into flame? What do you burn with passion for?

I can’t remember which church father said it, but one of them observed that many people initially come to Christ out of fear of hell. From there, they grow into an adoration of the kingdom of God. But the pinnacle—the peak of spiritual maturity—is following Christ for love of Christ himself.

I often remind my congregation that we don’t come to Christ just to escape hell—we come to Christ to get Christ. And if we don’t truly know who Jesus is, then saying, Jesus died for your sins, is practically meaningless. It’s so abstract to people that they struggle to grasp why someone would die for them.

People understand a father jumping in front of a moving car to save his daughter because they comprehend the deep, abiding love he has for her. But unless they know Christ, they won’t understand why He would die for their sins. Without that understanding, the Gospel is reduced to a vague religious phrase with little impact.

So my answer to this question is that we need to be driven not by a passion for the application of the text, not for the ethics of the text, not even for public theology—how Scripture speaks into culture and society. We must be driven by a passion for Christ Himself.

That, to me, is what it means to be fanned into flame—to have holy ambition.

Jon Dillon: I agree with all of that. I’ll take a different angle on this text and say—if you're not preaching for Christ, I don’t know what you're doing. But a big part of serving Christ is lifting up other people.

If you're a pastor shepherding a flock, a small group leader, a missionary, or even just a Christian engaging in everyday conversations, you are going to encounter people whom God is calling into ministry. These are not rivals. These are people God has placed in your life on purpose and for a purpose—to train them, to bless them, and to equip them, not to be in competition with them.

A young man longs to find a pulpit. He wants a place where he belongs, where he can use his gifts. And pastors like me need to recognize that sometimes, that means stepping out of the pulpit to highlight what God is doing in someone else’s life. That doesn't diminish your calling—it deepens it. That’s discipleship.

We need to resist the temptation to think, No one can do this but me. If I weren’t here, the wheels would fall off this ministry. If that's true, you’re failing as a pastor. Ministry isn’t about elevating yourself—it’s about building up a community of believers. And God is going to bring people who long to use their voices to proclaim King Jesus.

So how do we platform them? How do we help them understand the weight of what they are called to do? That takes time. You disciple them long before you ever give them a pulpit. You talk with them, pray with them, walk with them—way before you say, Hey, I’m gone this Sunday; you’re up. And if you secretly hope they do a bad job so that people are glad when you return? Then you’ve completely broken the system.

I love that this is discussed in Timothy because Timothy was a young man entering ministry, and Paul wasn’t territorial about it. If all our churches were running at full capacity, we still wouldn’t be making the cultural impact we need. There is so much room for more voices. Anthony, I think you’d agree—we need more books, more podcasts, more conversations, more people falling in love with the God who gave us His word.

We can’t just tell people, Go out and make disciples. Part of theology is teaching them how to do it.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, exactly. People often say, I don’t know what to say because I don’t actually know what I believe. If they don’t have theological grounding, they don’t know how to make disciples.

Jon Dillon: Right. But the way the church often handles this today is, Here’s a list of Bible colleges. Go pay a ton of money, get a degree, and then come back when you’re “qualified.” But let’s be real—even with a diploma in my pocket, I still wouldn’t feel qualified.

There’s a weight to the kingdom of God that should swallow up the individual. If you understand the gravity of what God is calling you to do, you realize how big this is. A young man longing to find a pulpit isn’t a bad thing. It’s not about stealing your thunder—it’s about shepherding the next generation of preachers.

Anthony Delgado: And we have a pastor shortage right now. Even though church attendance is at an all-time low, we have an unusual number of churches looking for pastors. Part of the problem is that churches are being too critical about who they’re willing to hire.

Many of these congregations need to take a fiery young preacher fresh out of seminary. But they don’t want that. They want to pay a part-time salary to a guy with 100 years of experience and four degrees. That’s just not realistic.

But there’s also another issue. I wish I had the stats in front of me, but I know that an unusually low number of seminary graduates are actually entering pastoral ministry. Many are graduating, then walking away from church leadership entirely. They decide, I can’t do this. I can’t make it work.

And that’s unfortunate. But it reflects a larger problem—if someone believes that the pulpit is anything other than the communication of God’s love through Christ, they will always feel inadequate for the task.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you. By the way, Pastor John, while listening to you, I thought—it would be great if you narrated an audiobook one day. You have a voice for it.

Jon Dillon: Oh, that’s good to hear!

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, you do. But the problem is, my brain is all California…

Jon Dillon: (laughs) I’d come hear you!

Anthony Delgado: My brain moves faster than my eyes do. I actually had to hire someone to record the audiobook for The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think because I just couldn’t do it myself. I have a clear voice, but I stutter a lot, and I change topics mid-sentence. I’d just be all over the place.

Nikoli Hrisov: Okay, so Holy Ambition was the first segment of 2 Timothy 1:5-14. The second is The Confidence of the Pastor-Theologian, Who is Grounded in the Gospel, which covers verses 8-12.

The author writes:

*"The call to ministry is a call to kill shame. Paul describes himself as 'God’s prisoner'—appointed to suffer in jail. But his suffering is not his own. Timothy is called to share in suffering (v.8). This suffering is not due to idiocy, poor tactics, sin, or weak brand management. It is because of the gospel.

All the power comes from the Word of God. There is no pastorate without the gospel. In a sin-cursed world, Christic proclamation is not going to win you friends in high places.

To be a pastor-theologian does not mean sitting in an ivory tower with Restoration Hardware furniture, sipping craft coffee, and winning plaudits from secularists. It means suffering. It means people will hate you.

The pastor is a theologian of the cross."*

Jon Dillon: So, everybody from West Virginia, Anthony is going to assume you’re drinking moonshine.

Anthony Delgado: That’s fair! You don’t know I’m not.

Jon Dillon: (laughs) That’s true.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, praise God. But honestly, it would be silly—I don’t drink alcohol, and I don’t drink coffee either.

Nikoli Hrisov: Maybe Pastor Anthony can go first on this second segment—Being Grounded in the Gospel—where the pastor is called to suffer for the gospel, even to the point of losing friends, fame, or position.

Anthony Delgado: Well, in biblical theology circles, some people don’t like me saying that all theology is the gospel. But I stand by it.

The term biblical theology was first used in Reformed circles to describe the theodrama that unfolds through covenant theology across Scripture. I hold to a Geerhardus Vos-style biblical theology, rather than the narrative theology that’s more common today under that label. That might be too technical for some, so I won’t get lost in the weeds there, but here’s where it matters:

There’s an ongoing discussion about how we read Scripture. If you’re preaching from Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, or Ruth—reading the Bible strictly left to right—then the question is, Is this text Christophanic? Do we see Christ in it? Some insist Christ is present in every passage, but I’d argue that’s not always the case.

I’ve seen bad preaching that forces the gospel into passages where it doesn’t naturally fit.

Nikoli Hrisov: Like in Song of Songs, where some pastors feel so embarrassed by the intimacy and sexuality in the book that they insist it’s only about Christ and the Church?

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. I know plenty of people who say Song of Songs can’t be about Christ and the Church because they read the Bible strictly left to right.

Personally, I think we need to get over the over-sexualization of the book and focus on the depth of love being illustrated through marriage. That understanding helps us see something profound about Christ and the Church, or Yahweh and Israel.

I do think Song of Songs ultimately speaks to Christ and the Church—but only if we interpret it biblically and theologically. The problem is, some interpretations get weirdly mystical and over-spiritualized, as if the text itself wasn’t about real human love and marriage.

So yes, I do believe we can find the gospel in every text, but it has to be done the way the apostles did it.

I remember when I was in seminary—it took me three tries to graduate, not because of bad grades, but because I wasn’t willing to step away from ministry to focus solely on school. The first seminary I attended was in the don’t-read-Jesus-into-the-Old-Testament camp. They taught that only the New Testament authors had the authority to find Christ in the Old Testament.

They’d say, Peter saw baptism in the flood narrative—that’s fine. But don’t overread his point. If the apostles didn’t make the connection, you can’t either.

I reject that completely. Nowhere in church history—until relatively recently—do we see that approach to biblical interpretation. The New Testament authors read the Old Testament Christophanically. The apostolic fathers did, too. That pattern didn’t stop until dispensationalism was popularized by D.L. Moody in the 1960s. That’s when we saw a major drift away from reading Christ in the Old Testament.

So, my long-winded answer to this question is that we should read every text with the expectation of finding the gospel of Jesus Christ. But we have to do it right.

If we only see the gospel as penal substitutionary atonement—which, while important, is just one part of the gospel—then trying to shoehorn it into every Old Testament passage gets awkward.

I talk about this in The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think, but the point is: the gospel is bigger. If Jesus is the incarnate Yahweh, then we should expect to find Yahweh’s kingship on every page of Scripture.

And that’s where we find the gospel—not just in isolated atonement metaphors, but in the reality that Christ is King, that He reigns over all, and that He has conquered the powers of darkness. That’s the gospel we find all throughout the Bible.

Jon Dillon: I'll give that an amen. I like that.

Anthony Delgado: Thanks, John. Not everybody likes it. I don’t even know who’s listening right now!

Jon Dillon: Part of the issue is that we’ve redefined words to fit what we want them to mean. One of the most important things in theology is letting the Bible speak for itself. Don’t approach a text and say, It has to fit this system or It has to support my argument. Let the text talk. Assume the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He inspired these words.

When He put these stories, these sermons, and these accounts together, it wasn’t an accident. Honoring the Spirit of God means approaching Scripture the way He intended. And here’s what really upsets people—there are times when a passage can have multiple legitimate readings.

That’s when you sit down and discuss it. Does this interpretation make sense? Why do you believe that? It’s not about deciding who loves Jesus and who’s going to hell—it’s about wrestling with something big. Some issues take more than a bumper-sticker answer.

The idea that every single passage in the Old Testament is a direct story of Jesus doesn’t hold up. You’ll find texts that primarily describe how God was acting in that moment. But that is still gospel—it’s the kingdom, the good news that Christ is King, that this broken world will fall away.

Penal substitutionary atonement is one of the most beautiful elements of the gospel, but it’s not the whole story. The gospel includes creation, eschatology, pastoring—it’s the framework God has given us to live by. Without the gospel, we are of all men most miserable.

Anthony Delgado: Mm-hmm, that’s right.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you for that. The third segment of 2 Timothy 1 is The Work of the Pastor-Theologian: Offense and Defense, based on verses 13-14.

The author writes:

*"There are two major avenues of attack planned by Satan on every pastor. The first is a softening of doctrine. The second is a softening of morality. In truth, one often activates the other.

The pastor promotes the in-Christ life. He plays offense against the devil. He does not leave his people to get attacked. He does not promote himself—he points his people to God.

All of this is inescapably theological work.

The second task of a pastor’s theological ministry is playing defense—guarding the truth. Paul exhorts Timothy to guard the good deposit (v. 14). The qualification for defending the truth of Christ is not a degree—it is the Spirit’s indwelling power. The Spirit is the activator and the guarantor of the pastor-theologian."*

Pastor Delgado, when it comes to the work of a pastor-theologian—both on the offensive and defensive side—what would you like to comment on from this passage?

Anthony Delgado: I think this is absolutely right, though I don’t necessarily believe that doctrine and morality activate one another equally. It’s always a weak doctrine that leads to weak morality.

Or, to put it another way, it’s bad theology that leads to bad ethics. Our understanding of who God is shapes our actions. If a pastor has a juvenile view of God—one that’s essentially, Jesus forgives sins, and everyone’s a sinner, so I’ll be forgiven no matter what I do—then he is walking into dangerous territory.

That kind of thinking is infectious. It leads to moral failure. It leads to justification of sin. And the worst part? That pastor likely won’t repent until he hits rock bottom.

The better way to think about this is not God slaps my hand when I sin, but God defines sin because He loves me. Sin destroys, and the better I know God, the more I want to walk in His ways—because He is protecting me.

A good father doesn’t slap his child’s hand just for discipline—he does it to stop them from touching a hot stove or sticking their fingers in a light socket. It’s love. And when we truly understand the love of God, obedience isn’t a burden. It’s a response.

That’s why I firmly believe that soft theology leads to soft morality. Look at any fallen pastor—whether it was sexual sin, financial misconduct, or abuse of power—before any of that came to light, they were already compromised theologically. They were already on the path of bending doctrine to fit their desires.

That’s why I believe the work of the pastor-theologian is first about guarding doctrine. Once that slips, everything else follows.

Jon Dillon: Yeah, that’s a good point. I don’t know if these are two separate things as much as they’re expressions of fear-based or foolish thinking in the pulpit.

Being a pastor is not an easy job. The burnout level is incredibly high. Suicide rates among pastors are devastatingly high. You live in a fishbowl—your family does, too. Everyone has an opinion about everything you say or don’t say, what you do or don’t do.

The number of guys I graduated seminary with who are still in pastoral ministry? It’s small. Part of that is because—let’s be honest—sheep can be abusive. Sometimes, I feel like I’m fighting sheep more than I am shepherding them. There are some really mean people in churches.

And pastors feel trapped. They think, I don’t want to lose my job, my house, or my calling. So I have to fit the mold. I have to say what the people want to hear. It doesn’t matter that the people in the pews have never done this job—they still feel like experts in how it should be done.

That’s how doctrine starts to soften. That’s how morality begins to slip. And on the opposite end, you get pastors who go the other direction. Instead of softening, they harden. They become aggressive. They make anger their brand. That also draws a crowd.

Christ told us the road is narrow. That means it’s easy to go off track in either direction. Either you focus on Christ, or you don’t. Every pastor needs to be honest and say, Sometimes my preaching is centered on Christ, and sometimes it’s not. I’m a fallible human being. I struggle.

The only way to stay faithful is to remember that your calling does not come from your church—it comes from God. He asked you to stand up and do this. And that means suffering is part of the job.

If you’re listening to this, ask yourself—are you a blessing to your pastor, or are you someone he fears? Do you hold his paycheck over his head? Does he have to worry whether he’ll be able to feed his family if he says something unpopular?

There’s a brokenness in how we do church. And pastors need to remember—our job isn’t to be liked. Our job is to be faithful.

Right now, the American church is not a model I would recommend to anybody. It’s difficult. That being said, God has placed me in a really beautiful place. These are unusually kind people. There’s a sweetness here. And I’ll tell you—I needed it.

God brought me here at a time when I was really struggling, when I didn’t know if what I was doing mattered. You have doubts all the time. Having people praying for you, standing by you, lifting you up—those are vital parts of theology and pastoring. They go together.

I know as Westerners, we like to dissect things and separate them—this goes over here, that goes over there. But it’s more like a smoothie than it is anything else. It’s all blended together. The fact that I know my God, that I love His word, is going to lead me. If I love the Lord my God with all my heart and soul, I’m going to love my neighbor as myself.

That means if you’re a pastor, you have to teach them the words of God. You don’t get to decide what God should have said or how He should have gone about it. It’s your job to understand Him—not the other way around.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you for that. I’ll just read the last segment of this chapter, which we will not assess for the sake of time. There are four applications, so for those taking notes, especially pastors, here they are:

  1. Every pastor theologian unfolds the glory of God—a glory hidden from the world that will soon be revealed.

  2. The pastor theologian holds an office for mature men.

  3. Pastor theologians seek to grow in their grasp of God’s Word.

  4. Every pastor ministers theology—for there’s nothing else to minister.

And now we’ll be switching to this book. I planned to cover three chapters, but I don’t think we’ll have enough time in an hour. That’s fine. We can stop at any time and maybe continue in the future.

Jon Dillon: My friend, I’m going to have to jump off around 6:30. I hate to do that to you, I apologize. But things are moving and shaking here in pastor land as we speak. That’s okay, I apologize.

Nikoli Hrisov: That’s okay. I can continue with Pastor Anthony as much as he has time.

Jon Dillon: I’m just going to go ahead and agree with everything Anthony says after I go.

Nikoli Hrisov: Yeah. Okay.

When it comes to chapter one in The Pastor Theologian, let me read some of the quotations. Pastors don’t know who they are or what they’re supposed to be. Perhaps no profession in the modern world suffers from a greater lack of clarity as to the basic requirements of the job.

This reveals what is nothing less than a crisis of identity, which surely contributes to the high levels of burnout among pastors and the sometimes insane attempts to conceal this burnout with various forms of self-medication—from booze to porn to complete emotional disengagement and resignation.

This is an especially acute problem because we’ve lost touch with the ancient traditions of the church. What was once a readily accessible and compelling vision of the pastorate is now buried under six feet of dirt.

So basically, the author starts by saying that, until the Enlightenment, we knew what a pastor was—pastors were theologians, and theologians were pastors. But in the last couple of centuries, with the Enlightenment, modernity, and postmodernity, meanings and positions have shifted and lost their historical significance.

In that context, many modern pastors have lost their understanding of what their position is. This has led to feelings of isolation and depression, to the point where some pastors numb themselves through addiction. All of this is happening because we’ve lost the historical understanding that a pastor is, by default, a theologian.

That is the gist of the first quotation. Any brief comment on this, Pastor Anthony?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, I would just say that it's not just an Enlightenment issue. One of the real challenges here is uncovering a biblical vision of a pastor, which I would personally define as a biblical vision of an elder. Pastoring is technically a role within eldership, and the office itself is elder, not pastor. That distinction matters because when we look at the historical development of church leadership, we see a range of influences shaping what we now think of as "pastor."

The role of a pastor, or priest, developed significantly through the Episcopal model of the Catholic Church. Each Reformation tradition—whether from the Church of England, Calvin, Zwingli, or Luther—handled church governance differently. Today, particularly in the United States and the West, there’s a general lack of understanding regarding the differences between a pastor, a reverend, and a priest. A Methodist church, shaped by the Episcopal model, approaches pastoral leadership differently from a Baptist church, which formed in reaction to it. A Mennonite church, coming from an Anabaptist tradition, has an entirely distinct perspective as well.

The result is that people often come to church with layers of assumptions about what a pastor is supposed to be. They’ve attended Pentecostal, Methodist, non-denominational, Baptist, and Reformed churches at different points in their lives, and they carry expectations from each. If you asked them to define "pastor," they might struggle to give a clear answer. That’s why there’s so much work to do in recovering a biblical view of the pastorate. It’s important not only for pastors themselves but also for congregations to understand what scripture teaches about pastoral leadership.

Jon Dillon: That’s a great point. If Anthony pulled out job descriptions from his past and I did the same, we’d both see the same phrase at the end of almost every listing: "And various other duties as assigned." That’s code for, "You’ll do whatever we say, whenever we say to do it, because we told you to."

Most pastors want to serve faithfully. They don’t enter ministry intending to fail or make a mess of things. When I was a young pastor, I had some pretty naive expectations about what ministry would look like. Then reality hit me hard. Churches often have unspoken expectations that don’t always align with biblical pastoral ministry.

One of the biggest things I’d say to any church is this: Honor the calling God has given your pastor—not just the job you think he ought to be doing. Many people assume they know what a pastor’s role should be, but few have actually studied what scripture says about elders and their responsibilities.

In Western culture, it used to be common to refer to the pastor’s study. Now, it’s the pastor’s office. That shift tells you something. We’ve moved from seeing the pastor as a student of God’s Word to treating him as a CEO. The American business model has shaped our churches, and now pastors are expected to be vision-casters, program managers, and networkers. While visiting and shepherding people is important, the central calling of a pastor is to preach the gospel and make disciples. That can’t be done effectively if a pastor is spread thin trying to run a church like a business.

No pastor can minister to everyone alone. He needs others who will lean into the calling with him and share in the work of shepherding. Many pastors take on far more than they can handle because they feel they have to, and that pressure often leads to private moral failure. They begin to cope with stress through alcohol, pornography, or other destructive habits.

A dangerous pattern emerges where pastors normalize hiding parts of their lives because they don’t feel safe being honest. They don’t know who to talk to, and they fear that admitting their struggles will cost them their jobs. That’s because pastors are often in competition with one another instead of being in true community.

This is not how God intended the church to function. Pastors are meant to minister to their people, but the people are also meant to care for their pastor. It’s a two-way street. Yet, many churches have embraced a punishment model of leadership.

For a lot of congregations, pastors are replaceable parts. If the pastor says something unpopular, they let him go and bring in the next guy. The church keeps running, the cycle continues, and pastors keep burning out. This is why so many pastors have short tenures in churches.

We’ve created a culture where churches don’t know what to do with pastors, and pastors don’t know what to do with churches. That’s a broken system, and it’s doing real damage to the body of Christ.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you. Since we only have Pastor Jon for the next 10 minutes, let me quickly read one or two more quotations and get your thoughts on them.

Here’s an interesting one:

"Pastor theologians aren’t extinct, but sightings are rare. This is because pastors no longer traffic in ideas. They cast vision, manage programs, offer counsel, and give messages. We no longer view the pastorate as an intellectual calling. We don’t expect pastors to be theologians—certainly not scholars, at least not of a professional variety. A pastor ought to translate the ideas of the theological community into the language of the average Christian. We no longer expect the pastor to be a contributing member of the theological community."

Jon Dillon: I think this is another example of the brokenness of our system. We have hyper-specialized ourselves into academia and the pulpit, and they view each other as rivals. Academics are frustrated that pastors don’t get it, and pastors are frustrated that academics don’t get it. There's this weird back and forth between the two.

This is why Dr. Michael Heiser was so important for me. He was an academic who understood pastoring. He took big concepts and didn’t just write for his peers—he cared about blessing the church. That is something we need across the board.

Many pastors, because our culture allows it, stop studying with passion once they have their ordination or degree. But you should never stop studying. You haven’t mastered the book, and neither have I. If your brain isn’t filled with questions, you need to engage, because there are layers of mystery in scripture that you need to be ready to talk about.

There used to be an expectation that pastors understood the Bible. But as our culture has shifted away from reliance on the Word of God, we've substituted it with moral teachings, platitudes, and personal experience. Many believe they don’t need to know what the Word says—they just need to have a strong opinion, and people like them will follow. That is not a substitute for the calling of a pastor.

Anthony Delgado: Amen to that. Sometimes we look at the world around us, and we see professionals who get a degree, start their career, and never need to go back to school. There’s this professionalization of ministry where people think, “I learned what I need to learn, and now I just do the job.” But that mindset is really unfortunate.

My pastor always taught me that every year, I should read a theology book, a book geared toward pastors for my own growth, and a book written for the everyday person in the church. At minimum, read those three. I read a lot more than three books a year, but I think that’s exactly right. You need to be growing in your understanding of who God is and what He has done. If you aren’t loving Christ yourself, you’re not going to inspire anyone else to love Him.

Jon Dillon: That’s true. And to go back to what you said earlier—what is the Bible to you? Is it worth your life to pour over? Then do it.

People say, “Well, I’m not a big reader.” But there has never been an easier time to study than right now. With the click of a button, you have access to more resources than any generation before you. The only thing stopping you is yourself. The Spirit of God is with you. The Word of God is there. You have the calling of the Lord—now go and make your Father proud. Do the job, and do it well.

Saying, “I already learned this, I can get by with just this,” is a disservice—not only to your church but to yourself. You are part of what God is doing, and it matters how you handle your calling. Theology is not a dirty word. It’s not just for intellectuals—it’s for all of God’s people because it is the study of God, the knowledge of Him.

We’ve stopped talking with each other, and now we’re just yelling. I apologize if my voice got loud earlier, but I’m passionate about this because it matters. I’ve watched so many pastors get swept under the rug and thrown away because they weren’t what a group of people ordered. Churches treat pastors like they’re replaceable—like old fries you toss out when you want something fresh.

Some people care more about whether their pastor looks or talks a certain way than whether he is truly called. But pastors, you are called by God. You are ordained into the ministry of the gospel—act like it. Study the Word. Show yourself approved. Minister to the flock. Fill yourself with the gospel and stand firm in your calling.

Anthony Delgado: Amen.

Nikoli Hrisov: Pastor John, is this the time for goodbye, or do we have time for one more quick discussion?

Jon Dillon: No, let’s do one more. I’m having a good time.

Nikoli Hrisov: Okay, it will be a fast one. One of my dearest Moody professors, Dr. John Clark, would often say, “Everyone is a theologian. You’re a theologian. The devil is a theologian. So make sure you’re a good theologian.” Theology isn’t just for pastors—it’s for everyone. That has stayed with me forever.

I still have some of my textbooks from Moody. I couldn’t read everything and prepare for tonight, but if we ever do a sequel, I’ll bring out some of those books about how everyone is a theologian.

Anthony Delgado: That’s exactly right.

Nikoli Hrisov: The next quotation is a short one. This division of labor between intellectuals and theologians on one hand, and pastors, practitioners, and translators on the other, departs from historical precedent. In the not-so-distant past, the pastorate was considered one of the most scholarly vocations. Indeed, in pre-Civil War America, the pastorate was a go-to calling for intellectuals. Clearly, the academy, with its guild of professional theologians, has long since replaced the local congregation as the vocational home for theologians. The effect this has had on both theology and the church is that theology has become ecclesially anemic, and the church has become theologically anemic.

So sad and so powerful.

Jon Dillon: It's true. I agree with this. I’m not saying I’m an intellectual, but I want to understand. I know God has called me to teach others what His Word says.

If you think you can get by with just a motivational speech and avoid controversial topics, why would you do that? The Word of God isn’t given to us just to sit on a shelf. Don’t you want to know what it says? Don’t you care? Don’t you wish people were asking you deep questions? So go and find the answers.

We, as pastors, shouldn’t be satisfied just sitting on the shelf. Get out there and do the work. I have found that the more theology I preach and the more complex concepts I present, the more people lean in. They don’t want the Sunday School flannel graph version of things. They want substance.

The sad reality is that many pastors don’t preach theology because they don’t know it. They have no idea how to handle deeper topics because they aren’t engaging with the books and the scholarship that could help them. But I don’t see the academic community as a threat at all. They do the hard work, and I read their books, highlight what I understand, and translate that for my people.

It doesn’t mean I agree with every scholar. It doesn’t mean I adopt every view. It just means I long to know my God better. I used to be a literature teacher, and I love reading, but reading is hard. There’s good reading and bad reading. Just because you made the noise with your mouth doesn’t mean you understood the author’s intent.

Our culture doesn’t read well. It doesn’t value these things. So when we talk about historical-grammatical methods, people either glaze over or lean in with curiosity. But I’ve found that when I share information about ancient cultures, Bronze Age tombs, or archaeology, people engage. They’re already watching documentaries about these things at home. They’re consuming the Smithsonian’s version. Why not tell them what the gospel actually says?

People are interested. They’ve just given up on church because the pastors never get around to the meat. We’re stuck sipping milk.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. I also appreciate that you said we need the academy—or at least that we benefit from it. Even within the academy, biblical theology guys read the biblical studies guys. The theology guys read the biblical theology guys. The practical theology guys read the systematic guys.

Eventually, practical theology gives way to applied theology, which gives way to pastoral theology—what we’re doing with our people. If we’re doing it right, we should be engaging with all of it.

I have to read scholars because that’s how we develop from the text. If I can’t pick up a commentary that engages with the nuances of Greek when I’m studying Romans, I’m probably going to make mistakes. My Greek is decent, but it’s nowhere near as strong as the guys who live and breathe it. These are people who teach Greek at universities, spend their lives researching, and translate the New Testament. I need those guys because my Greek is never going to be at that level—I don’t have the time to dedicate to it.

There’s a necessary trickle-down effect in scholarship, and it’s important. But we’ve already made a huge mistake in even asking whether pastoring is an intellectual calling.

Honestly, people are smarter than we think. And, John, you touched on this—when you give people more theology, they get it. They start asking better questions. People are theologically anemic because they’ve never been trusted with deeper learning. But we’re all humans, created in God’s image. And while that’s not primarily about our intellect, we do have an inherent interest in these things.

Jon Dillon: Reading a book is like having a conversation with someone. I feel like I know Anthony really well because I’ve read his books. I’ve heard his thoughts. That’s what a book is—someone talking to you.

So when we read old books or new books, we’re not saying, “All I need is the Bible.” That would be like saying, “I don’t need to talk to anybody. No one out there can teach me anything.”

Pastor, never stop learning. Never hit the point where you think you have nothing left to learn. I don’t think any of us would say that out loud, but some of us live that way. We dismiss certain topics because they’re not “our thing.” But I don’t care if it’s your thing—do the work.

I love when Paul tells Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. Carry the gospel message forward. I think both of you guys are doing that, and it’s been an honor to be on here with you.

I’m sorry I have to run, but it’s Sunday, and I’m a pastor—I get pulled in 50 directions. Thank you for having me. And for anyone I’ve offended, I apologize.

Anthony Delgado: You haven’t offended anybody.

Jon Dillon: Well, maybe just myself. But I love you all. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you, Pastor John. Maybe in the future, we can do an episode on cryptids, gods, ghosts, and stuff like that.

Jon Dillon: Amen. Let’s talk Mothman, brother.

Nikoli Hrisov: Yes! Okay, thank you. God bless.

Anthony Delgado: I’ll come watch that discussion, but I don’t belong in it.

Nikoli Hrisov: There’s a rainbow on your right side.

Anthony Delgado: That’s my sliding glass door. Must be the beautiful California sunshine confirming what I’m saying is true.

Nikoli Hrisov: Exactly.

Anthony Delgado: It’s the same thing.

Nikoli Hrisov: Okay, I’ll try to move quickly so we can cover more.

Anthony Delgado: I’m good for another 20 or 30 minutes.

Nikoli Hrisov: No longer is the pastoral community as a whole able to provide serious intellectual leadership for the crucial issues facing the church. The problem is tied to an unhealthy division of labor that now exists between pastors and theologians.

To put it simply, pastors aren't theologians, and theologians aren't pastors. We're convinced that the church needs to start a new course. And yet the way forward will be a return to the past, the recovery or even resurrection of an ancient vision—that of the pastor-theologian.

Pastors must take up the mantle of theologian by providing solid thought leadership to the church and its theologians. We do envision and want to advocate for a return of the pastor-theologian who has a shepherd's heart and a pastor’s primary vocational identity, yet who functions as an intellectual peer of the academic theologian and, as such, produces theological scholarship for the broader ecclesial community.

So basically, the author of this chapter has the issue that we made this division between the pastor and theologian. So he’s momentarily saying, no, these two roles should be embodied in one person.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you go back in history, how was Paul not both? And even if you go forward, how was Augustine not both?

The division really happens under, and I understand that there were wise reasons that undergird episcopal ecclesiology, having a hierarchy and divisions of labor and things like that. I fully understand that. And actually, to a degree, it is biblical. Isn't that why Jethro told Moses, hey, you're going to have to divide the labor? And the apostles appointed deacons so that they could focus on the ministry of the Word and prayer?

So there is something to having some kind of episcopate where there’s a division of labor. But I think that in this case, when you divide the pastor and the theologian, you’ve made a distinction between, in a sense, two types of elders.

Again, this is my thinking on this. At Palmdale Church, we have two offices: elders and deacons, and that’s it. Now, I get called Pastor Anthony, and I introduce myself as the lead pastor, but all of our elders are pastors, and they all pastor. If you’re going to be an elder at our church, you’re going to be doing counseling. You’re going to preach. In a good year, I’m not going to preach more than 40 times because I want other people to have an opportunity to do that. Sometimes we have more elders; sometimes we have less. Right now, we have less, so I’m preaching more. But in a healthy situation, other guys are getting in there and doing that. Every pastor is leading a small group.

The reason we’re doing that is because we don’t actually see a distinction between the pastor and the theologian. I don’t see a situation where one guy pastors and another guy teaches theology, or another guy preaches, or whatever. It’s far more basic to all of that.

And I think Pastor John is right. I think it’s the expectations that a church puts on their pastors. We get these long administrative job descriptions that are absent from the Scriptures. If anything, most of that administration belongs to the deacons. I don’t care what color the carpet is. As much as other people can handle that, to free me up for the ministry of the Word and prayer, the better for me and the better for our church. That’s where I want to go with that.

So, yeah, I have the same issue with this distinction between pastor and theologian. But I also think that same criticism belongs in academia.

I’ve shared this story before, maybe even on your channel, but Dr. Michael Heiser came out years ago and did a conference in Southern California. He actually disavowed ever traveling to or through Los Angeles again. But what I loved about the conference he put on was that we set up a green room in the back. We found out what some of his favorite snacks were. We had it all set up for him. We even brought in a couch because we didn’t have one in the church, just so he could have a comfortable area to rest between sessions.

I didn’t know if he was going to be one of those prima donna types who didn’t want to talk to people. And he definitely needed the space to take a break at times. But what he chose to use that space for throughout the conference was counseling. He was bringing people back there to continue conversations, to go deeper, to minister to them.

If you knew Mike, he was a pastor. He was an elder in his church and participated in pastoral ministry. So he wasn’t just some scholar. Yeah, he was an ancient Semitic scholar and an incredibly smart guy, but he had a pastor’s heart. That really drew me into his work because I haven’t seen that everywhere.

When I first started seminary, my first semester was at The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley. And every single professor at The Master’s Seminary—I believe it’s still this way—was a working pastor. Now, I don’t endorse all of their theological distinctives, but what I did appreciate was that every professor was an elder in a church. They participated in pastoral ministry. That was a requirement. Because they held the value that there should not be a distinction between pastor and theologian.

So, yeah, they were all doctors—PhDs and DMin degrees—but they were also all working pastors. And I think that’s exactly right.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you. I have one short quotation, which is the last one from this chapter, and then I’ll read one from the next. So, we’ll be done in 10 to 15 minutes.

"True Christian piety, expressed most fully and properly in love for God and neighbor, does not require intellectual sophistication. And yet, the whole New Testament appears to be one sustained appeal to know the living God and his world. ‘Do you not know?’ the Apostle Paul asks seven times in his first epistle to the Corinthians. The crisis that Paul confronted in his letter to the Corinthian church was a moral crisis, but it was a moral crisis worsened and enabled by a crisis of thought. Correct understanding cannot get us all the way there, but wrong understanding is often all that is needed to shipwreck one’s faith. And it is the pastor’s duty, above all others, to guard the theological integrity of the people of God."

This is one of my favorite quotations so far.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, I love it, and I agree with it. In some sense, we’ve already answered parts of this question, talking about the lack of distinction between theology and ethics. Good theology is going to lead to right ethics.

A good illustration of that is marriage. And marriage is always a good illustration of how we relate to God because it’s used throughout Scripture. If I want my wife to know she’s loved, I have to know her first—to know what expresses love to her. If I never do that, my marriage is not going in a good direction.

That’s why theological anemia shipwrecks faith. If someone hasn’t taken the time to love the God they claim has saved them, then when competing voices come in, they get confused. They don’t know what to believe, and that confusion leads to moral failure. And that moral failure is often what leads people to apostasy.

I’ve been in ministry for a long time, since the early 2000s, and I can’t think of a single person who has become an apostate—whether a public figure or someone in one of our churches—that wasn’t also paired with moral failure. People don’t just rationally work themselves out of their faith.

This whole deconstruction movement is because people love the sins of the flesh. I don’t buy for one second that deconstruction is people questioning their theology and deciding they don’t believe what Scripture teaches. They love their sin more. They love the desires of the flesh more than the God of the Bible.

It’s not deconstruction. Their theology was never constructed in the first place. That’s what’s happening here. If you don’t have sound theology, it will shipwreck your faith.

Nikoli Hrisov: As someone who is a man and who is very imperfect, I just pray that the same thing won’t happen to me—or to us.

It’s easy to speak about God, godliness, and spirituality, but when you’re tested, you can fail just as hard as those we’ve talked about. Even famous theologians, pastors, and preachers have fallen in recent years, and their stories are incredibly sad.

I’m just praying and hoping that for myself, being mortal and as weak as they were, that I won’t follow that same path. Or if I do fall, that I won’t reach a point where I can’t be reconciled to God.

This is a real danger for Christian leaders, pastors, and even regular churchgoers. I don’t hold any position in my church, but the same warning applies. May God help us not to become apostates in our moral lives and in our theology, because it’s a real danger.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, it really is. And I’ll tell you, here’s the theological difference between someone who falls into apostasy because of moral failure and someone who has a healthy understanding of their sinfulness and doesn’t.

The litmus test is simple: how do you feel about your sin?

The person who hates their sin and, like Paul in Romans, cries out, “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate, I do” (Romans 7:15)—that’s the struggle of every faithful Christian. And we all read that passage and say, I don’t fully understand it, but I know exactly how that feels.

But the difference is, what do you do with it?

In the Southern Baptist Convention, which isn’t a denomination—despite what people say—it’s a network of churches. And our core value is the autonomy of the local church. The problem with that is that many churches don’t have multiple elders. So as a lead pastor, you’re often accountable to fellow elders, except that many Baptist churches don’t have them.

That’s why I always encourage pastors to be accountable to a mentor from another church. I still talk about my pastor. I pastor Palmdale Church, but I still refer to my pastor—who pastors Cornerstone Church of Littlerock. I meet with him regularly.

The reason I can distinguish between sin that leads to apostasy and sin that’s part of our struggle is that when I struggle, I’m on the phone. I really do love the righteousness of the eternal kingdom of God. I really do want it now. And while I understand theologically that I can’t have it fully yet, I still long for it.

I want to be trained by the Holy Spirit to walk in greater righteousness. So for me, accountability is a big part of that.

If another pastor is listening to the lie that his sin doesn’t matter much, that guy isn’t confessing his sin to fellow elders or a mentor. He’s putting up a false front of moral purity while secretly living in sin.

We’ve seen this happen with well-respected theologians—men who have committed serious moral failures and lost their positions. I don’t want to name them because I still have a great appreciation for much of their teaching, but they believed at least one lie: that their sin didn’t matter.

Christ did not die so that our sin doesn’t matter. That’s not what grace is. In fact, Paul says that when we take that attitude toward sin, we are “crucifying again the Lord of glory” (Hebrews 6:6).

That’s a terrifying thought.

So, I think that’s the real difference. How do you perceive your sin in light of the theology of Scripture?

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you for that. Before we conclude, I'll just read one short quotation—one from chapter four, and I think this is my favorite from this chapter.

"Pastors, not professors, are the theological leaders of the church. Show us a pastor with robust theological depth, and we’ll show you a local church with corresponding theological depth. Likewise, show us a pastor who lacks the capacity to think meaningfully about the gospel, and we’ll show you a church that lacks the same. The theological integrity of a local church will not rise above that of its pastor. The theological anemia of the church and its corresponding ethical anemia rests squarely on the shoulders of a theologically anemic pastoral community. Not every pastor needs to be a theologian, of course, but collectively, the pastoral community is responsible for deftly shepherding the people of God to embrace the core truths of the gospel. And it is here that the pastoral community, in the main, is failing."

What are your thoughts on this last question?

Anthony Delgado: First of all, I realize that I have a theological bent in my thinking. Some of that is personality-driven, some of it is just my personal interests, and some of it has to do with what really led me deeper into my faith when I was a young adult.

I do have a great appreciation for faithful pastors who are doing the work of ministry. And I like that in the quote you just read, the author acknowledges that not every pastor needs to be part of the academic discussion. Not every pastor needs to write books. Not every pastor needs a YouTube channel. Not every pastor needs to be engaged in debates.

But there should be a theological conversation that is driven by pastoral voices. One of the things that’s really cool is that, especially since the pandemic, the internet has provided an incredible amount of tools for pastors. Whether it’s reusing materials from their churches or having audiences in other spheres, there are now ways for pastors to engage more deeply.

I always warn our church, If you’re not sure who to listen to online, let me know, and I’ll tell you whether it’s a thumbs up or a thumbs down. I’m not going to pretend everything out there is good. But I do believe there is a pastoral community responsible for shepherding the people of God theologically. That’s happening right now.

At the same time, there is also a lot of nonsense out there. And that’s unfortunate. Hopefully, enough people who are rooted in sound theology are discerning enough to avoid it.

That said, there’s no excuse for any pastor—even the one who says, I’m not the theology guy, I just love Jesus and want to care for people. Maybe that guy is pastoring a church of 40 people in a rural town in the Midwest, and God bless him for that. But even then, there are free resources available to help him grow in theology.

Start with something simple—listen to the Naked Bible Podcast, listen to Triple M, start learning. There are lots of good, accessible resources out there. Even if someone doesn’t see themselves as a theologian, you have to love theology at some level to be a pastor.

Pastors should constantly be growing in their theological knowledge. And at the same time, we need to give ourselves grace. I wouldn’t be preaching if I thought I needed to preach like John Piper tomorrow. That guy is the theological preacher of theological preachers. I’ll never preach like him.

So I have to cut myself some slack, but I also have to ask, From where I am, how do I grow? And I trust in the sovereignty of God—that He has placed me in my church, with my people, at this time. My job is to provide what they need for this season.

So cut yourself some slack, but also carve out the time to do the work.

Nikoli Hrisov: That’s great, Anthony. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast for the third time.

I want to invite all the listeners to support Anthony Delgado’s work. I’ve provided the link where you can find his two amazing books. I also provided the link to Pastor John Dillon’s podcast, The Two Trees Podcast, which is another great resource—please support his work as well.

To all the clergy and regular churchgoers listening, this is not about a false dichotomy between loving Jesus and studying theology. It’s not about saying, I just want to walk in the Spirit, I don’t need books. Or, I don’t want to be misled by churches and theologians because they all have biases.

This isn’t Spirit vs. Knowledge. It’s not Theology vs. Being Led by the Spirit. It’s both.

Loving God includes loving your neighbor, having a devotional life, volunteering in the church, and doing what’s expected of any Christian. But it also includes loving God with your mind—investing time, finances, and energy into books, podcasts, and theological articles.

Not everything has to be difficult. Not everything has to be expensive. But you should invest in your understanding of God, His kingdom, and the Scriptures. You will be eternally grateful for the ways you’ll grow in your faith. And with that knowledge—which is never meant to make you arrogant—you will be able to teach others with greater depth.

Your people will marvel at seeing God in a new light as they encounter the majesty of His Word.

Trust me, you will benefit greatly from this.

May God bless you all.

Anthony Delgado, may God bless you in the book you’re writing. I hope we’ll talk about it this year or next, whenever you finish. May God bless your pastoral ministry.

Thank God for pastors like you and John—faithful men who aren’t boasting about doing everything perfectly but recognize their weaknesses and still choose to serve.

You understand the weight of your calling. And, like Paul said, “Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel”—not because you feel qualified, but because you are called.

You don’t want to give up. You don’t want to be part of those bad statistics.

Praise God for people like you. May He bless you, and I look forward to our next episode.

Anthony Delgado: You too, Nikoli. Keep up the good work, man.

Nikoli Hrisov: Thank you. Bye-bye.

Anthony Delgado
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