#13 Divine Rebellion

Show Notes

In this episode, Anthony and Cody discuss the theme of divine rebellion, tracing the origins of sin and the influence of spiritual beings in biblical history. They explore how the presence of “serpents” in our world continually tempts humanity toward self-sovereignty and rebellion, drawing connections from Genesis through the New Testament. Together, they unpack the Hebrew Scriptures' portrayal of giants, demons, and the consequences of divine rebellion, emphasizing the importance of personal responsibility in resisting these influences.

Music: Dark Music by Black Rose

Podcast TranscripT

Anthony Delgado: “This light momentary affliction is preparing an eternal weight of glory for us, beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen, but to the unseen” (2 Corinthians 4:17-18). In a post-materialistic world filled with immense spiritual noise, we're here to uncover the ancient Near Eastern context of the Bible, aiming to recover the truly mystical faith of our spiritual forefathers. Welcome to the Biblical Re-Enchantment Podcast, where we bridge the gap between the ancient Hebrew story and modern insights. I'm Anthony Delgado, your host for this journey into the often-overlooked mystical dimensions of the Bible.

Cody Urban: And I’m co-host Cody Urban, happy to be along for the ride.

Anthony Delgado: Thanks for being here, Cody. This is episode 13, and today we’re going to discuss divine rebellion. In this episode, we’ll explore the theme of divine rebellions in the scriptures. We'll focus primarily on the Old Testament, especially in Genesis, to understand how supernatural rebellions influence human defiance against God’s kingdom in the real world. From the serpent’s temptation in Eden to the fall of the sons of God before the flood, we’re tracing how these divine acts of rebellion mirror human patterns of corruption and violence. We’ll also touch on the rebellious divine judges in Psalm 82 and uncover how these forces shape our understanding of spiritual warfare.

Actually, we’ll see how much of this we have time for because it's a massive topic.

Cody Urban: That’s a lot.

Anthony Delgado: It could be multiple episodes, maybe.

Cody Urban: Yeah, maybe.

Anthony Delgado: The episode will conclude by examining the Bible’s promise of victory and inviting listeners to reflect on their role in the struggle between light and darkness.

So, let’s go ahead and dive in. We’ll start with the devil’s role in the Garden rebellion.

Cody Urban: Before we start, I just want to mention that even some pastors I know and respect still hold perspectives that, funny enough, now feel like an old-school way of thinking. After being in church for so long, there’s this established paradigm about all of this.

Cody Urban: I’ve listened to you and read some of Michael Heiser's works—not as extensively as you, but I’ve gone through a few of his books and listened to his podcast. His perspective has really built a different framework for me around the spiritual side of the Bible and the concept of divine rebellion. Even with what I understand now, I still have questions, like about the timeline and how it all fits together. So, I’m excited to have this conversation, and I hope our listeners can relate to where I’ve been, and maybe we can lead them to some interesting conclusions.

Anthony Delgado: There are good reasons and, admittedly, some less-than-ideal reasons why we have certain presuppositions about the devil in the Garden and his role in Old and New Testament narratives. Some of our beliefs are accurate, some are not, and some are incorrect for unusual reasons—others for understandable ones. We’ll try to cover as much of that as we can as we go along. But I do want to focus on what the Bible actually says.

Cody Urban: Yeah, absolutely.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly.

Cody Urban: Last week, we discussed human rebellion, and we mentioned the serpent in the Garden who tempts Eve by speaking half-truths or asking questions that subtly lead her astray. Then we get what you called—I loved this—the Proto-Evangelium, where there’s the prophecy that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the snake, but there will be enmity between the offspring of the woman and the snake. But what does that mean? Who are the “offspring” or the “seed” of the snake?

You could read that and just think, okay, so there’s a talking snake in the Garden. And didn’t we mention a few weeks ago that some people take this to mean that animals could all talk?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, there are some interesting conclusions drawn from that.

Cody Urban: Right. And I think some of the passages you’ve noted, like Ezekiel 28:13, might help clarify. Would you like me to read it?

Cody Urban: Would you like me to read that?

Anthony Delgado: Let’s set the stage a bit first. I think the initial question we need to ask is: if the serpent in the Garden is the devil—or, at the very least, a divine being who has rebelled—why is he even there? There are a lot of views around this, so I'll try to be sensitive to them, but it’s worth considering why he’s allowed in the Garden at all, right?

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: So, go ahead and read verses 13 and 14 of Ezekiel 28.

Cody Urban: I’m reading from the NIV translation: “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite, and emerald, topaz, onyx, and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise, and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created, they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.”

And there’s more on that, but right there, it mentions being in Eden and described as a guardian cherub.

Anthony Delgado: Right. Some argue this isn’t referring to the serpent, but there's a symbolic layer here. How can he look like a serpent in Genesis while also being described as an adorned guardian cherub in Ezekiel? I don’t think it means he was literally wearing these stones. Instead, it suggests he appeared as the most beautiful, precious stones we know. This kind of imagery is often associated with royalty—think of kings with crowns adorned with jewels, symbolizing their elevated status.

So, on one hand, for descriptive purposes, Genesis refers to him as the serpent, but Ezekiel reflects on him as this anointed guardian cherub. It’s as if Ezekiel is seeing through to a deeper level of symbolism. That’s where we get the idea of the devil in the Garden and his role as a throne guardian. Ezekiel even mentions he was there on the mount.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: Ezekiel seems to depict the Garden a bit differently than Genesis 2 and 3. There’s a sense of it being walled or gated, almost like it has a barrier around it with a gate, and the presence of a center within.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: In some of the Second Temple apocalyptic literature, like First Enoch, we see a high mountain at the center of God's paradise, where His palace and throne are located. Ezekiel gives us a similar picture of Eden—a high mountain at the center of everything. It’s almost as if Sinai in the wilderness becomes, in a way, a temporary temple—a high mountain where God dwells, at least symbolically.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly, and you can see this imagery.

Cody Urban: Actually, the Bible Project podcast is currently exploring the theme of mountains in the Bible, which ties in with this idea. It’s fresh on my mind too.

Anthony Delgado: I’d guess they’re probably interpreting these mountains symbolically, as they often do. So here we have the throne in Eden, and the question is, what’s the devil doing there? Well, he’s the throne guardian. This might seem off-topic, but it raises the question—why would God need guardians around His throne? Some suggest it’s because, in the ancient world, all divine or human kings had throne guardians, which might help people understand the role of the serpent. In Revelation and other texts, we still see God surrounded by throne guardians—though there, they’re unfallen beings.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: There could be some of that contextual link in the imagery. Others propose that the guardians are actually there to protect people from God’s presence. Personally, that seems a bit too clever, but nonetheless, God is depicted as having...

Cody Urban: Right, and along with that, why would God need a divine council? He doesn’t, yet He has one. He doesn’t need human beings either, yet He made us.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. He chooses to have them.

Cody Urban: So, if we’re asking why He would "need" divine guardians, the answer is—He doesn’t. He doesn’t need any of the things He created, but that’s part of who He is.

Anthony Delgado: Right, He chooses to have them.

Cody Urban: In Ezekiel 28, we also see his fall, which connects us back to this character.

Anthony Delgado: Yes.

Cody Urban: Shall I read it?

Anthony Delgado: Go for it.

Cody Urban: “Through your widespread trade, you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God”—which we’ve established as Eden in this context—“and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.” Do we want to discuss these fiery stones? I’m curious about what that’s all about.

Anthony Delgado: It’s judgment language. The prepositions don’t always mean exactly what we think, but being cast out “from the midst of the fiery stones” likely signifies expulsion from God’s presence. We’ll see a similar event with Adam and Eve, who are also cast out. It emphasizes God’s characteristic judgment, as if the fiery stones symbolize the judgment he must go through to be expelled.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: So, we have this image of his expulsion from God’s mountain. It’s interesting because it implies that the serpent isn’t the only cherub there. After Adam and Eve are expelled, another cherub is placed to guard the entrance.

Cody Urban: Right, yeah.

Anthony Delgado: The entryway to Eden, yes. This is part of why we believe there were multiple divine beings in the Garden, similar to what we find in other throne room scenes. His fall due to pride results in his being cast out. What’s unusual, though, is that although he’s cast out of the Garden—the earthly “temple,” so to speak—later texts, like Job 1 and 2, still depict Satan’s ongoing presence in the divine council.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: We’re not going to read from Job, but we see Satan’s continued access to the divine council, which creates a tension we need to explore. Why is he still in God’s presence? Why is he allowed into God’s spiritual temple—the divine council—while barred from the mountain of God in Eden?

Cody Urban: That’s something I’ve found confusing timeline-wise. I even started wondering if ha-satan (the adversary) in Job is the same character. In Eden, he’s this guardian cherub described as a serpent in Genesis 3, then cursed to crawl on his belly. But in Job, he’s suddenly able to walk into the throne room and join the council. I wondered, is the serpent even the devil or Satan? I might be jumping ahead, but Revelation confirms this, which feels like that big reveal at the end of a story—like Scooby-Doo pulling off the mask to reveal, “It was the serpent all along.”

Anthony Delgado: That’s part of it, yes. But we also have to recognize that, while I wouldn’t expect or endorse any kind of progressive revelation today—meaning, I don’t believe new truths should be added to the scriptures—there is a sense of progressive revelation within the biblical storyline.

I’m not expecting to hear a prophecy in a church service or on YouTube and think, “That needs to be added to the Bible.” That’s just not going to happen for many reasons. However, within the Bible itself, there is a progression in revelation. The story builds, and we have to acknowledge that. For instance, even if you argue that everything in the Bible has roots in the Torah, it doesn’t all originate in Genesis 1.

As Moses recorded what were likely oral histories or direct revelations from God, Genesis itself shows a progression of revelation. So, if you’re an Israelite in David’s time, considering the Garden narrative, you might think of the serpent as a demonic entity, even if you don’t use the word “devil.” You might also recognize other ideas of an accuser, a “satan,” in the prophets.

By the time we get to the New Testament, especially John’s writings in Revelation—widely accepted as the Bible’s final book—the understanding has developed. In Revelation 20, John writes, “He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent,” and we know from Second Temple literature that “ancient serpent” refers to the serpent in the Garden, who is the devil and Satan.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: This connection is significant because it shows that by John’s day, these figures were being equated.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: When reading the Bible from a left-to-right perspective, many biblical theologians will emphasize interpreting Genesis without immediately connecting the serpent to Satan or the devil. They might view the serpent as simply a cherub or perhaps a seraph, depending on the interpretation.

Cody Urban: And even the term “cherub” doesn’t appear until Ezekiel. If you’re strictly reading Genesis, all you have is a talking snake—just the bare text.

Anthony Delgado: True, although there’s reason to associate divine beings with serpentine imagery, which often implies seraphim or cherubim, whose distinctions are more about their roles than characteristics. Some biblical theologians might avoid linking the serpent directly to Satan or the devil because, in a left-to-right reading, these associations seem to develop later. For example, in Genesis, they avoid the conversation about Satan also being the devil, the serpent, and the dragon, as these connections become clearer over time. So, in Job, they might consider ha-satan as simply “the accuser” without linking him back to the serpent in Eden since this hadn’t yet been revealed in the text.

I find that as revelation progresses, we get clearer truths, like the idea that the devil, Satan, the dragon, and the serpent are all one figure. This thread, especially in the New Testament, can be traced back through the scriptures. When you start to pull on that thread...

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: ...you begin to uncover where it’s anchored. You’ll see it stitched throughout the New Testament, woven into Second Temple literature, the Old Testament, and then tied off. Think of it like a garment where the knot is back in Genesis 3.

Cody Urban: I love that. It’s a strong image.

Anthony Delgado: And if we handle this carefully—especially by considering Second Temple literature, which, while not scripture, gives us insight into how Jews viewed the biblical world—we can see where these connections are made. The church fathers, too, understood how to read the Bible through a Jewish lens in a way largely lost in Western Christianity today. So, while I’m not proof-texting by turning to Revelation 12:3, I am saying that Revelation 12:3 brings these ideas together.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: These truths are woven throughout the Old Testament. Another example is the devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness in Matthew 4, which many listeners are probably familiar with.

Cody Urban: And in that story, there are three temptations: one to turn stones to bread, another to jump from the temple with the assurance that God will protect Him, and the third, in Matthew’s order, where the devil shows Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and offers them to Him. That one can be especially puzzling—does Satan truly have the authority to offer these kingdoms? Or is he lying? After all, post-resurrection, Jesus declares, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,” but this was before His crucifixion.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah.

Cody Urban: Exactly, that’s the question.

Anthony Delgado: It is. The question of whether he even has that authority, and if so, where it comes from, is tough to answer. But if we look at how the New Testament describes the devil, we see the phrase “the devil and his angels” appear several times. I think we’ve touched on this in the podcast before. It’s an inversion of what we see in Job 1 and 2. In Job, when Satan enters the divine council, he’s a subordinate figure, tagging along behind the sons of God.

Cody Urban: Yeah, exactly.

Anthony Delgado: Paul talks about these cosmic rulers and judges in Ephesians 6. In Job, Satan is a lackey of sorts, entering behind the sons of God. But in the New Testament, it seems he’s somehow rallied these beings under his leadership. I can’t pinpoint exactly when or how this shift happened, or what he did to make it happen, but it’s evident in the text. So, narratively, there’s an inversion where Satan—who didn’t have rulership authority in the Old Testament—appears to have usurped this role.

It’s almost as if the sons of God, or the watchers, have deferred authority to him. I don’t think this was given to him by God, as it’s not explicit in scripture, but it appears that he’s taken it. So, when he speaks to Jesus, he’s essentially saying, “Since I have this authority, I could give it to you.” You could even interpret it as him offering Jesus the chance to rule over the sons of God who oversee the nations. He’s envisioning himself as an emperor, with the other sons of God as vassal kings in the cosmic realm, suggesting that Jesus could be his right-hand man.

Cody Urban: Like Joseph under Pharaoh.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. Joseph had authority over everything in Egypt, except for Pharaoh himself. Joseph managed the kingdom while Pharaoh enjoyed the privileges of his position.

Cody Urban: Joseph, yes.

Anthony Delgado: Right, thanks. I start talking and things get mixed up in my mind.

Cody Urban: Happens to the best of us! But, just to clarify—are you saying Satan does or doesn’t have that authority? I feel like the answer got a bit unclear.

Anthony Delgado: He wasn’t given authority by God, but it seems to come from the sons of God.

Cody Urban: I see.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, granted by the sons of God.

Cody Urban: I see what you're saying. In John 12:31, there's a moment where Jesus says, "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." It seems like Jesus is also affirming—or it sounds like He's calling—the devil the ruler of this world in this situation.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly, and that's what divine council theology is about, right? It's this idea that Moses describes, where God has given cosmic authority to the sons of God—it appears to be there.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: And that gets cited elsewhere too. Paul references it in 1 Corinthians 8, so we're seeing this in other places, not just in a single text. Then in Psalm 82, these beings show up ruling unjustly. They seem to have real authority over the nations, and God is allowing them to do what they're going to do—He's letting them have that authority. It's only they who seem to defer their authority to the devil and Satan—to that figure.

So then Jesus is saying that even this devil has been cast out. I don't think Jesus is acknowledging that God has given him this authority as much as He's stating that even the devil's perceived authority is being dealt with.

Cody Urban: I see.

Anthony Delgado: Yes.

Cody Urban: Let me rewind a bit. I hope you don’t mind, but I was just thinking about the timeline, which I feel I’m starting to understand better. Now that we know from Revelation that this is all the same character, we can trace that thread back. So, he’s a cherub in Ezekiel, cast out in Genesis 3 as the serpent who’s now cursed to crawl on the earth. Yet, he must still be some kind of spiritual being.

In Job 1, just this part here: “One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.” As you mentioned, he seems to just tag along. The Lord asks, “Where have you come from?” and he replies, “From roaming through the earth and walking around on it.” So, it feels like he’s been cast out of Eden, cursed to crawl on the ground. It’s almost like, to use a metaphor, if he’s an angel, his wings were clipped. Not that I mean that literally, but...

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, I get it.

Cody Urban: Does that metaphor make sense?

Anthony Delgado: I think so. To say his wings are clipped is to say he can no longer ascend to heaven. There’s a difference between an angel on an earthly mission who returns to God in heaven and one who has been cast out. We see this distinction in Revelation 12, which we’ll talk about shortly.

Using that metaphor, I’d say one common mistake is assuming that because the serpent deceived in the Garden, he must have already “fallen.” But...

Cody Urban: I see.

Anthony Delgado: To work with the metaphor, angels with wings don’t fall—they fly. So, the fact that he’s now the “dust eater,” cursed to crawl on his belly, has symbolic significance. It’s related to his association with death, specifically human death.

Cody Urban: Interesting.

Anthony Delgado: That idea of the devil ruling over Hades stems from traditions like these, which are tied into biblical theology.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: So, where I think we should go next is back to Matthew 4, where the devil is depicted in the wilderness. Just as Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden into the wilderness, the devil was also cast out into the wilderness. So, when Job 1 describes him roaming the earth, that’s his domain—the wilderness. This is why, in Matthew, Jesus goes out to the wilderness to meet the devil, because that’s where he dwells.

Cody Urban: Do you think the devil could be Azazel, or are they separate beings in your view?

Anthony Delgado: I discussed this in the introduction to my book, The Watchers and the Holy Ones. I can’t recall exactly how I phrased it, but I noted that sometimes he’s also equated with Shemyaza. In First Enoch, Shemyaza is the chief of the 200 Watchers who rebel, and then there are other chieftains who lead smaller groups of about ten each.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: Azazel is one of those—he’s second-tier, not a lower tier, but also not Shemyaza.

Cody Urban: Understood.

Anthony Delgado: In the Enochic narrative, there are some interesting dynamics. Initially, Shemyaza is the primary figure leading the rebellion. But once the Watchers begin their relationships with human women, Shemyaza fades into the background, and Azazel takes on a more central role.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: It’s not that Shemyaza becomes unimportant, but for various reasons, people have tried to equate the devil with both Shemyaza and Azazel. In my book, I mentioned that neither Shemyaza nor Azazel is the devil. They’re both demonic and, in that sense, “satanic,” but they are not the same as the devil in Revelation 20.

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: We’ll often see these kinds of associations between figures because of symbolic similarities. Symbolically, there might be a connection, even if it’s not literal. For example, in the Tower of Babel narrative, I suspect—and I wrote about this in The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think—that Nimrod is leading the rebellion to summon a god, and I believe that god is Azazel, who was bound in the desert of Dudael. My theory is that Nimrod was trying to summon Azazel’s power to lead this rebellion, a social rebellion of sorts.

So, while Azazel may be “devilish” or demonic, he’s not the devil of Revelation 20. Yet, the symbolism of Azazel’s association with the wilderness still resonates in Matthew, where we see the devil in the wilderness.

Cody Urban: Okay, that’s helpful.

Anthony Delgado: It’s almost unhelpful in its complexity, but that’s how biblical symbolism operates. The authors of scripture are often invoking ideas that resonate with the ancient Israelite worldview. So, it’s nearly impossible for this wilderness setting in Matthew not to evoke imagery of Azazel.

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: In First Enoch, Azazel is the one who teaches humans to sin. Of course, after the Garden, humanity already had knowledge of good and evil. But Azazel teaches things that might be called “national sins”—like waging war, seduction, manipulation, robbery, and so forth. So, is the devil Azazel? No. But is he like Azazel, and does Matthew 4 invoke Azazel-like imagery? Yes.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: Yes, so that’s essentially what’s happening in Matthew 4. We have this narrative of authority, the devil in the wilderness, and the devil as the ruler of the world, which you mentioned from John 12:31. This makes us think about the devil’s movement—he seems to go back and forth to heaven.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: This brings up the timing of Satan’s fall.

Cody Urban: Yes, that’s a point where the timeline can feel confusing. If we’re following the thread you mentioned earlier...

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. And our notes may be a bit out of order here, but we’ll sort it out. One distinction I want to make is between “fall” and “rebellion.”

Cody Urban: Right, you mentioned in the last podcast that Adam fell from the rulership he was given in Eden.

Anthony Delgado: Yes, exactly.

Cody Urban: Listeners can check out the last episode for that.

Anthony Delgado: I like to bring in as much context as possible without making people go back and listen to everything, but it’s relevant here. In this context, it’s possible for any being—divine or human—to rebel without yet having fallen.

Cody Urban: Interesting.

Anthony Delgado: Rebellion precedes the fall. We see this clearly in Psalm 82, which describes the judgment of the sons of God: “God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.” There’s rebellion here among the sons of God, but God allows them to judge unjustly.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: And yet, they haven’t fallen. Then in Psalm 82, it says, “I said, ‘You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, you will die like men and fall like any prince.” Let’s focus on that phrase, “fall like any prince.” What does it mean for a prince to fall?

Cody Urban: I’d assume it means they lose their throne.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re killed or imprisoned, though it could involve that. All it means is that they no longer sit on the throne. So, even though these sons of the Most High are in active rebellion against God, they haven’t lost their authority yet. Then we have verse 8: “Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit the nations.” This is the Psalmist’s plea, essentially saying, “We need God to step in because of what’s happening on earth.”

So, in summary, a fall follows a rebellion.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: So, Satan can be in a state of rebellion in the Garden without actually receiving his punishment until Revelation 12, which is where I think it ultimately happens.

Cody Urban: Okay, because there’s that moment—you're probably familiar with this—when Jesus sends out the disciples two by two. They come back, thrilled that they were able to heal and cast out demons, and Jesus responds, “I saw Satan fall like lightning.” Without much context, you could interpret that as Satan falling at the moment Jesus sent out the disciples, since it’s his response to their success over demons.

Anthony Delgado: It’s an interesting statement that can mean a lot of things. Jesus could be affirming that He’s seen this happen since Genesis 3, saying, “I saw Satan fall like lightning.” So why are you surprised that demons fall too?

Cody Urban: I can definitely see people interpreting it that way.

Anthony Delgado: It could mean a variety of things, even something future-oriented.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: He might be indicating the kingdom of God, suggesting, “I’ve seen Satan fall like lightning”—pointing to the future, saying, “This will happen; it’s already written.” He could be referencing anything from the beginning of incarnational events, or simply these events involving the twelve disciples. Really, it’s adaptable to whichever point you interpret as Satan’s fall.

Cody Urban: Sure, yeah. Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: I think the entire period of the incarnation, from Christ’s conception by the Virgin Mary to His ascension to the Father, is what Revelation 12 refers to. It’s during this incarnational period that Satan “falls like lightning.” We see the beginning of that fall in Matthew 4, with the temptation in the wilderness—their first significant interaction—which culminates in Satan’s indwelling of Judas Iscariot, leading to the betrayal at the end of Jesus’ life. This rebellion unfolds over time, culminating in his fall, and I think that’s the narrative in Revelation 12.

In Revelation 12, there’s the story of the woman and the dragon in verses 1 through 6. The woman represents Israel, giving birth to Israel’s Messiah.

Cody Urban: So it’s not Mary?

Anthony Delgado: It’s symbolically Mary, in that Mary gives birth to the “sons of God.” I touch on this in that strange section of my book, The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think, titled “The Church as Incarnational Mother” in the “Family Gospel” chapter. It’s an odd concept, I admit.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: But if you’re curious, you’ll have to read it.

Cody Urban: Go read it! It’s the best-selling book.

Anthony Delgado: So in Revelation 12, starting around verse 3, it says, “Another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.” Here, it appears an actual fall is taking place.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: The dragon then stands before the woman about to give birth. I’ll leave it to the readers to follow that in detail. But then in verse 7, “Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back.” So, in verse 3, when the stars are swept down, it’s not so much a fall as the dragon rallying them for an earthly battle.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: The dragon, along with his angels—the stars—are now fighting Michael and the other angels. “The dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.” This echoes Enoch, where Shemyaza, leading the rebellion, insists the other Watchers promise not to abandon him. They rebel, produce offspring, and then, when judgment comes, God declares they can’t return. Enoch is sent to deliver that final word: they’re permanently cast out.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: Similarly, in Revelation 12:9, it says, “The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” That’s the fall.

Cody Urban: So, timeline-wise, when did that happen?

Anthony Delgado: Well, “on earth as it is in heaven.” I don’t think John intends for us to align these events perfectly with incarnational events.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: But we can identify a few markers. There couldn’t be any cosmic authorities by the time Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. Even before the ascension, when Jesus gives the Great Commission, He says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples.” He’s claiming that authority even before His ascension.

Cody Urban: Sure, yeah.

Anthony Delgado: There might be an “inaugural versus consummational” aspect here, where Jesus claims authority on earth even before His ascension. So, it seems Revelation 12 didn’t happen before Genesis 1, if you know what I mean.

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: We often hear that Satan fell before the Garden, but I think that interpretation largely comes from Paradise Lost rather than scripture.

Cody Urban: Yes, I’ve heard pastors I respect say things like that. I love 99 percent of their theology, but…

Anthony Delgado: There’s a literary reason behind this belief. Stories are one of the most convincing ways to influence people, and Paradise Lost painted such a compelling picture that it became widely accepted. At first, it didn’t seem dangerous, so people started believing it.

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: And then it seeped into pop culture and just became part of the general idea.

Cody Urban: Oh, yeah.

Anthony Delgado: But it’s actually kind of dangerous if you think about it. The narrative shifts from “Satan rebelled and was punished by God” to “Satan fell and therefore rebels.” If that’s the case, then it implies God made the devil as a rebel, which suggests God as the creator of evil. This misconception has cropped up throughout Christian history, with some thinkers suggesting that God created evil to test humanity. But that’s not the narrative of scripture. If it were true, then most humans would be reprobate because God decided to test them with evil, which completely contradicts the nature of a loving God.

Cody Urban: Right. That is an interesting point.

Anthony Delgado: It’s a dangerous idea for Christian theology. We want to maintain that Satan had the free will and agency to rebel, and that the fall was a consequence—not the cause—of that rebellion. In fact, the fall was a grace for humanity, as it’s a punishment directed at the devil.

Cody Urban: And if Satan had fallen before the creation story—if he were already in rebellion—why would he be allowed in the Garden? Especially if we imagine it as a high mountain, like in Ezekiel, where heaven and earth meet. If he’s fallen, why would he be there at all?

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. It wouldn’t make sense to give him an important role after a fall. When we think “fall,” we should think “demotion.” If God had removed his authority and cast him out, he wouldn’t then be given a crucial position in the Garden. That doesn’t add up.

So, what we should see as we examine Satan, the devil, the serpent, and even figures like Azazel throughout the biblical narrative is a progression of rebellion. This rebellion reaches its peak when Satan indwells Judas in the Gospels. That act—violating human will and consciousness—is a pinnacle moment, similar to the rebellion of the Watchers in Genesis 6.

That ultimate act of rebellion, I think, is the tipping point that leads to war breaking out in heaven, as described in Revelation. I’m not trying to be overly rigid about the timing, but it aligns.

Cody Urban: That makes sense because that act—possessing Judas to betray and ultimately murder the Son of God—sounds like an all-out coup, like a full-scale attack on Jesus at the time of His crucifixion.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly.

Anthony Delgado: The Satan figure is quite different from the Genesis 6 “sons of God.” In Genesis 6, the sons of God are captivated by human women, essentially saying, “Do you see these women? They’re beautiful. Look at the children they have; wouldn’t it be something to have our own?” This is Shemyaza’s agenda—to go and be like humans, to experience the unique things that God gave them.

Cody Urban: Right, they were drawn in by that attraction.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. They’re fascinated by humanity—by the beauty of human women, the potential of children. They decide to have their own children, which is the heart of the Genesis 6 fall narrative. But Satan’s rebellion is much more sinister. He’s incredibly patient, unlike those who acted on a sudden impulse and then regretted it, seeking forgiveness. Satan’s approach is premeditated; he plays the long game.

Cody Urban: Right, it’s calculated.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. And throughout the Old Testament, wherever Satan appears, he’s very careful not to violate human will. That’s why he’s called the “father of deceit.”

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: So, Satan’s influence builds steadily throughout the Old Testament, with him moving chess pieces in the background. This progression brings him into clear focus in the Gospels, and culminates in Revelation 12:8, where he is finally excluded from heaven, climaxing in Luke 22:3 with the possession of Judas. The other divine beings who rebel, like the sons of God in Genesis 6, follow a similar pattern. Their actions lead to widespread human wickedness and judgment. Genesis 6:5 says, “The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

Some interpret this as a statement about all humans at all times, linking it to Psalm 51, where David says, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” But I think this wickedness isn’t a permanent change in humanity—it’s a specific influence due to the Watchers and the giants, leading human society into rebellion and wickedness.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: The flood is a judgment on humans influenced by the Watchers, but it’s not only humans who are disciplined. Jude 6 says, “The angels who did not stay within their position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.” The Watchers didn’t fall in the same way as Satan—they voluntarily left their place in heaven and have now been confined to earth and beyond, held in Tartarus, a third-tier cosmological realm beneath the earth.

Cody Urban: Tartarus, right?

Anthony Delgado: Yes, more accurately than Hades. Jude 6 specifically uses the term Tartarus, where these beings are held in gloomy darkness until the final judgment. This reference is a nod to Enoch, where the Watchers, barred from heaven, begin teaching humans things like war and seduction—broadly speaking, societal sins that sow chaos. This teaching leads to the Nephilim and their descendants being characterized by violence and destruction.

Cody Urban: Right. So, in Revelation, when it talks about the dragon’s tail sweeping down a third of the stars to earth, could that explain why there’s such a surge in demonic activity during Jesus’ life? It’s different from what we see in the Old Testament.

Anthony Delgado: I think that’s plausible. My New Testament professor, Sam Lamerson at Knox Theological Seminary, did some analysis on demonic activity in both biblical and extrabiblical writings. He observed a rise in demonic activity during the Second Temple period, which then decreases afterward, though not entirely. This pattern suggests that while demonic activity rises and falls, it was especially intense during the Gospel accounts.

Cody Urban: Interesting.

Anthony Delgado: And there’s a reason for this ramping up. There are two types of demons, and I think we can demonstrate this biblically. The term “demon” comes from the Greek word daimonoi, which has an ambiguous meaning.

Cody Urban: Kind of like “angel,” which means “messenger,” though we apply it more specifically.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. “Demon” was originally a broad term that could even refer to gods, like Zeus.

Cody Urban: Yeah, I remember learning that "demigod" and "demon" have similar roots.

Anthony Delgado: Right, and there’s a way to specifically say “demigod,” but broadly, a lesser god could also be referred to as a demon. It could apply to chaotic or terrestrial spirits in the Greek worldview.

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: So when we think of the disembodied spirits of the giants, that’s where this idea comes in.

Cody Urban: Uh-huh.

Anthony Delgado: And we’ll go into that more in a moment, but essentially, demonic activity—when we read that the devil’s tail swept down a third of the stars—I think the implication is that he recruited them, in a sense.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: Or, perhaps, as a seraphim or cherubim, he had command over them. But it’s more likely that they knew what they were getting into. So, yes, he’s recruited a third of the angels, who then become the ones who war with Michael in heaven. This demonic presence on earth then leads humans to imitate divine rebellion, which is why Israel constantly battles the gods of the nations throughout the Old Testament.

Now that the devil has control, so to speak, having swept down these angels with him, there’s an overarching deceit at work. It’s more organized, not just demons causing random problems. That’s why, in the Old Testament, especially through conquest and wilderness narratives, there’s a consistent call to wipe out the giant clans. They’re more than just powerful opponents—they represent rebellion against God.

We see examples of divine judgment against these giants, or Nephilim, in multiple places. Do you happen to have Deuteronomy 2 open?

Cody Urban: I don’t, sorry.

Anthony Delgado: No problem. Deuteronomy 2:19-21 says, “When you approach the territory of the people of Ammon, do not harass them or contend with them, for I will not give you any of the land of the people of Ammon as a possession, because I have given it to the sons of Lot for a possession. It is also counted as a land of Rephaim.” That word “Rephaim” is a general term for…

Anthony Delgado: In Deuteronomy 2:19-21, the term “Rephaim” is used as a tribal name for giants who once lived in the land, now called the Zamzumim by the Ammonites. It says, “A people great and many and tall as the Anakim.” The Anakim are linked to the descendants of the Nephilim, the giants. But the Lord destroyed them before the Ammonites, who dispossessed them and settled in their place. This gives us a picture of the dispossession and judgment of the giant clans, these beings of divine lineage who cause destruction on earth.

Interestingly, the Israelites at times mirrored the violence of the Rephaim. For example, in Amos 2:6-8, it says, “Thus says the Lord: ‘For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they sell the righteous for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals—those who trample the head of the poor into the dust of the earth and turn aside the way of the afflicted; a man and his father go in to the same girl, so that my holy name is profaned.’” This mirrors what we see in Psalm 82, where the divine beings are condemned: “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?”

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: These beings are taking advantage of the weak and fatherless, failing to uphold justice for the afflicted and destitute. If you did a comprehensive study of Amos and the unjust rulership of the gods in the cosmos alongside the giants’ activity on earth, you’d see a pattern—another example of “on earth as in heaven.”

Cody Urban: Interesting, yeah.

Anthony Delgado: Right. There’s a repeated pattern of rebellion, where cosmic actions of divine beings are enacted on earth through humans. This imitation is why divine rebellion needs to be addressed—what divine beings do influences human behavior, leading humanity into rebellion.

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: We see this most clearly in the Tower of Babel. If I’m right that they were trying to summon Azazel’s power, they already embodied the rebellion they sought. Azazel becomes more of a symbol because humans are acting like divine rebels, saying, “Let’s make a name for ourselves.” This ambition mirrors how the gods in pagan myths constantly seek dominance and recognition.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: This narrative of rebellion carries on until Jesus, who takes authority and turns it on its head. Now, do demons still exist? Are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim still present on earth?

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: I think so. Enoch presents an interesting perspective, describing how, when a giant is killed, its spirit can’t ascend to heaven or descend to Hades because it’s divine. Instead, it would go to Tartarus, awaiting final judgment. So these spirits are bound to earth, which Enoch explains as the origin of demons. Some dismiss this as non-canonical, but I think…

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: This concept does connect to the Hebrew scriptures. Let me give you two quick examples. In Job 26:5-6, it says, “The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.” The word “dead” here is actually Rephaim, which is the Hebrew word for giants.

Cody Urban: Oh.

Anthony Delgado: So, when it talks about a giant trembling beneath the waters and their inhabitants, naked before God and Abaddon, it’s not referring to a living giant but a dead one. These dead Rephaim spirits are being associated with the place of the dead and chaos—the waters. This implies that the spirits of the Nephilim still have a presence and impact on earth.

Another example is Proverbs 9:17-18, which says, “Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant,” referring to deceit and things taken unlawfully. But it continues, “He does not know that the dead are there,” and here again, “the dead” is Rephaim.

Cody Urban: So that’s Rephaim again, huh?

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. The giants are connected to evil actions. Solomon, in Proverbs, suggests that when humans engage in sinful behavior, it’s because there are demonic presences—giants’ spirits—present. Not literal giants, but their lingering spirits.

Cody Urban: Interesting.

Anthony Delgado: The verse continues, “Her guests are in the depths of Sheol,” implying that while the body of a giant may be in Sheol, its spirit is with the person engaged in sin. This concept, though subtle, is present in the Hebrew Old Testament, which is why it’s developed further in Enoch to clarify the underlying themes. Enoch provides a narrative framework that makes the Hebrew intent clearer.

I think Enoch does this effectively, helping us understand the original Hebrew perspective. However, the danger lies in taking this too literally—believing that each time we sin, there’s a giant’s spirit present, or worse, saying, “The devil made me do it,” as if we have no personal responsibility.

Cody Urban: Right, exactly.

Anthony Delgado: Yes.

Anthony Delgado: So to wrap up the podcast today, let’s pose the question: Is there such a thing as human responsibility, or does all human sin stem from divine influence? What are your thoughts?

Cody Urban: I’d say we absolutely have responsibility. Otherwise, why would God tell us not to sin if we couldn’t make that choice? Ultimately, the responsibility falls on us to make decisions. I’ve heard it said that no one can make you do something you don’t truly want to do, which forces you to look inward and recognize that, on some level, you wanted to do it. You might later regret it or feel like it didn’t reflect who you are, but part of you was drawn to it.

This makes sense, especially when you feel heavy pressure or temptation. You might wonder, “Why didn’t I feel this pressure an hour ago or yesterday?” Even with the same opportunity present, you had more clarity then. But today, the temptation feels stronger. Yet, ultimately, I still have the final say—I still have agency.

Anthony Delgado: Yes, agency. I completely agree with everything you said. And to tie that back to biblical theology, let’s pull that thread all the way back through the narrative, right to Genesis.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: Consider what the devil did first—the first divine rebellion. The tree was already in the garden, and God had said, “Don’t eat from that tree.” This means that the opportunity for sin was present even before the devil entered the scene. And that’s what you’re talking about: sometimes, there’s an opportunity for sin, but the desire for righteousness is stronger. I’d say that’s because the Holy Spirit is within us.

Before the devil stepped in, I believe that Adam and Eve’s desire for righteousness, their trust in God, was stronger than the temptation. Without the serpent’s voice, I don’t think they would have eaten the fruit. While the opportunity was there, Eve needed that external voice—what we might call oppression rather than possession—a voice that introduced the idea, “Did you know you could be your own sovereign, your own god?”

That suggestion—that deceit—lured her by promising autonomy, suggesting that humans could assume a sovereignty meant only for God. I think that’s the essence of every temptation: the serpent’s voice in the world saying, “But don’t you want this?”

Cody Urban: Yeah, exactly.

Anthony Delgado: The serpent’s voice appeals to the flesh, even for Christians who, spiritually, have access to the “garden.” We can still hear that temptation. But if you’re not a follower of Jesus and don’t have the Holy Spirit, you live entirely in a world of serpents. Everything around you says, “Be yourself, be your own sovereign.”

Cody Urban: Right—“your truth,” “you do you,” “you only live once,” and so on.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. The constant influence is to empower your own flesh to rule itself, leading to a Genesis 6-like state where “every inclination of their heart was only evil continually.” This propensity toward sin becomes pervasive in a world filled with such voices.

Cody Urban: That idea is also touched on in Genesis 4, when Cain is angry with Abel. God says, “Why are you furious? Why do you look so despondent? If you do what is right, won’t you be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” The narrative then moves immediately to Cain luring Abel to the field and killing him, as if Cain completely tuned God out.

Anthony Delgado: Right, and that’s part of the curse after the fall. The curse includes “pain in childbearing,” which really means “pain in child-rearing.” The next story is that one of Eve’s sons kills the other. It’s the ultimate pain, as we discussed last episode.

Cody Urban: Absolutely.

Anthony Delgado: This happens because they’re now in a world of serpents, where sin is always crouching at the door. That temptation is always there, pushing us to assert our own sovereignty—like Cain did, showing his jealousy by asserting himself over his brother. This is the way of the world, where there’s an inevitability toward sin but still an occasional opportunity for good.

In the church, however, it should be the opposite: an inevitability for good with an opportunity for sin. That’s how it was in the garden. Adam and Eve could choose to listen to the voice of God or the voice of the serpent.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: So, using that serpent metaphor, what needs to happen—and we see this in the Psalms and throughout the New Testament—is that we must learn to listen to the voice of the Shepherd. That’s why we read scripture, study theology, and seek to understand God’s ways. It helps us discern the voice of God from the voice of the serpent. In moments of temptation, we want to hear God’s voice, not the voice urging us to be our own sovereign.

Recognizing that voice for what it is—the voice of the serpent—and fighting against it is part of our sanctification. Sanctification is about learning to listen to God rather than the serpent.

Cody Urban: Amen.

Anthony Delgado: Amen to that. Any last thoughts?

Cody Urban: Just a big “amen” to everything you said.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, and I hope this isn’t just coming across as “geeky” theological Hebrew stuff, but as something meaningful—something that actually matters in our lives.

Cody Urban: Absolutely.

Anthony Delgado: This week, we’ve talked about human rebellion and divine rebellion. Next week, we’ll start to explore how these issues are corrected. We’ll talk about being refugees in God’s kingdom and how taking refuge in Him provides a solution to living in a world of serpents. It’s ultimately an issue of divine sovereignty, and we’ll dig into that next week.

Thanks so much for being here, Cody. And to everyone listening, don’t forget to like, subscribe, and check out my website, anthonydelgado.net, for articles, YouTube videos, and more. Make sure you join the mailing list too—I’ve recently started it, and there are some exciting things in the works, including companion guides to my books that aim to bring biblical theology into practical application.

Cody Urban: That sounds so cool.

Anthony Delgado: Thank you, and God bless. Thanks for joining us today.