#17 Christus Victor: the DCW, Deuteronomy 32, and Victory over Cosmic Powers

Show Notes

This podcast episode explores the Christus Victor model of atonement, emphasizing Jesus’ victory over sin, death, and cosmic powers. We’ll look at the Deuteronomy 32 worldview (and DCW), which describes God assigning divine beings to rule over the nations, many of whom rebelled and led humanity into idolatry. We’ll look at the Divine Council, the Fall of the Watchers, and spiritual warfare, using passages from Deuteronomy, Psalms, Daniel, and other scriptures to illustrate the ongoing conflict between God’s kingdom and fallen powers. The episode highlights Jesus’ triumph over these forces through his crucifixion and resurrection, the implications for believers, and the eschatological hope of Christ’s ultimate reign.

Music: Last Stop, Artist: Kneat, Music by Bensound, License code: 9BVGDIAQJUYCCPKN

Podcast TranscripT

Anthony Delgado: "This light momentary affliction is preparing an eternal weight of glory for us beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen, but to the unseen" (2 Corinthians 4:17-18).

In a post-materialistic world filled with immense spiritual noise, we're here to uncover the ancient Near Eastern context of the Bible and recover the truly mystical faith of our spiritual forefathers. Welcome to the Biblical Re-Enchantment Podcast, where we bridge the gap between the ancient Hebrew story and modern insights. I'm Anthony Delgado, your host for this journey into the often-overlooked mystical dimensions of the Bible.

Cody Urban: I'm Cody Urban, here for the ride. Let's go.

Anthony Delgado: All right, cool. Cody, we're in episode 17. We had a little bit of a break—some things were going on—but now we're talking about Christus Victor. Within that framework, we're going to discuss the divine council worldview, sometimes called the Deuteronomy 32 worldview, and the victory over cosmic powers within the Christus Victor model of atonement.

Yes, it's a lot to cover. This podcast really is the culmination of all these lengthy discussions—probably over the last ten episodes or so—where we've been talking about the kingdom of God. We're also planning a Q&A episode coming up. You can visit my website, click on the Contact tab, and send me an email if you have a question. If you're not listening to this when it goes live, you might miss the deadline for that. But regardless, if you have a question about the kingdom of God or Jesus' victory over the gods of the nations—both highly integrated ideas—let me know. We'll gather questions from social media and the mailing list as well.

For this episode, though, we're really going to try to nail down Christus Victor—Jesus conquering the gods—something we've mentioned a number of times.

Cody Urban: Oh, totally.

Anthony Delgado: We want to really hone in on one last thing: How does what Jesus did in his life, death, resurrection, and ascension truly conquer spiritual powers?

When we talk about Christus Victor, we're often referring to Jesus' victory over sin and death. But I want to say this upfront—we're not really focusing on that today. There's plenty of good material available on that topic. You can find articles, comparative analyses in various book series discussing different atonement theories, and other resources. Any solid theological dictionary—or even a decent Bible dictionary—will cover Christus Victor and explain Jesus' conquering of sin and how that leads to an eternity free from sin, as well as his victory over death and what that means for eternal life.

But today, we really want to go to the root of things—to the deeper origins of sin and death. And that root is actually spiritual powers. It's ironic that this aspect is often left out of discussions about Christus Victor.

Maybe I should clarify for our audience—perhaps you haven’t heard of Christus Victor much, especially if you're coming from the evangelical world. It’s not a term that gets a lot of attention there. It's more commonly discussed in Reformed theology, and while it's reflected—though not necessarily by name—in higher church traditions, it's much less emphasized in the Baptist evangelical space. You’re far more likely to hear about penal substitutionary atonement than Christus Victor.

Cody Urban: It's certainly not in any of the models of sharing the gospel that we discussed many episodes ago—like the five-finger method or the four-point gospel summary. None of those approaches mention Jesus conquering lowercase-g gods and spiritual powers as described in Deuteronomy 32.

Anthony Delgado: Right, and it's not like those little bracelets with different-colored beads where the black bead represents the devil or something like that. Obviously, if you've listened to our past episodes, you know I don't think we should approach it that way.

But yeah, there’s material out there on Christus Victor, just not as much as on other atonement theories. If you like this episode and want to dive deeper, I'd recommend reading Christus Victor by Gustaf Aulén. He really explores the spiritual dimension of this idea. The full title is Christus Victor: A Historical Study of the Three Main Types of the Atonement. If you enjoy this episode, that book will provide even more depth.

Cody Urban: Is that light reading, or are we talking dissertation-level material?

Anthony Delgado: It’s not light reading, but it’s also not quite dissertation-level. It leans more toward the academic side.

So, let’s jump in and talk about Jesus conquering the cosmic powers. That’s really our focus today—how did Jesus conquer the powers? It all starts in Deuteronomy 32.

The term Deuteronomy 32 worldview was coined, I believe, by the late Dr. Michael Heiser. These days, it’s more commonly called the Divine Council Worldview, or you'll sometimes see it abbreviated as DCW. While this discussion will take us further into biblical history than I ideally want to go, I think Deuteronomy 32 is still a good starting point for understanding how cosmic powers of darkness came to be.

So, let’s take a look at Deuteronomy 32:8-9.

Cody Urban: I actually pulled that up because I was having a conversation with another spiritual brother of mine, introducing him to the Divine Council Worldview, or what some call the Deuteronomy 32 worldview.

I opened the CSB, and it says:

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance and divided the human race, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to..."

And this is where it gets interesting because some translations render it differently. In the CSB, it says, "according to the number of the people of Israel."

Anthony Delgado: Wow! So, Cody, the problem is that you're reading a Bible translation based on the majority text, which is a later textual tradition, rather than the earlier minority text.

If you think about how biblical texts were transmitted throughout history, they had to be copied repeatedly. Logically, if Jewish scribes were making copies again and again, the later copies would naturally be more numerous.

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: Over time, manuscripts deteriorate, and fewer copies of the older ones survive. However, the number of copies isn't the primary factor in dating manuscripts—there are much more sophisticated methods for that.

What we find is that earlier texts align more with what the ESV (English Standard Version) says. It reads:

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind..."

Now, what do you think divided mankind refers to?

Cody Urban: Babel.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly—Babel. That’s precisely what it refers to. If you check the ESV’s footnotes, you'll see a hyperlink to Genesis 11:8, which is the Tower of Babel narrative.

So, in Deuteronomy 32, we see that God divided mankind at Babel, determined their geographic boundaries, and—according to the earliest textual tradition—did so "according to the number of the sons of God."

Just to complete the thought, verse 9 says:

"But the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage."

So you have Yahweh taking Israel as his own people, while the other nations were assigned to other divine beings—appointed as rulers over them.

Cody Urban: Besides, Babel predates Abraham, so it definitely predates Jacob and his twelve sons. That was something I was trying to point out in a conversation recently. I pulled up the CSB because it's one of my go-to translations, but when I read "according to the number of Israel," it completely derailed my point. This wasn’t a debate—I was just talking with a brother in Christ. He had read the passage as though it referred only to humanity and had nothing to do with spiritual powers.

Anthony Delgado: Right. If you stick with the CSB or translations from the King James tradition—like the NIV, New King James, or KJV—they all follow the same textual tradition that says "sons of Israel." There are other translations as well that take that approach, though I can’t think of them all off the top of my head. If you're trying to get the best theological understanding of this passage, you really want to look at a more literal translation based on the earliest manuscripts. I'm not here to criticize any particular translation, but for this passage, the ESV does a better job.

Cody Urban: For practical purposes, I’ve definitely found a lot of value in reading different translations. I think of it not just like two sides of a coin but more like different sides of a cube—it’s multidimensional. When I come across a passage and have questions, one of the first things I do is compare translations. It’s like rotating the cube, looking at different angles, finding commonalities and differences. When the differences are really stark—like in this case, where one translation says sons of Israel and another says sons of God or, more accurately, sons of Elohim—that’s when I turn to podcasts, scholarly work, or trusted Bible teachers and church fathers to really dig into it.

Anthony Delgado: You're absolutely right to do that. I always recommend reading multiple translations side by side because that’s how you catch these differences. Usually, when you find a significant difference like this, it points to something important.

Deuteronomy 32 portrays these sons of God as cosmic rulers. Just as Yahweh’s portion is Israel, He assigned the Gentile nations to different sons of God—divine beings. We’ve spoken in previous episodes about why the sons of God are divine beings and not something else, so we won’t get into that today unless we really need to. But these cosmic rulers actually became rebellious. I don’t think it’s right to assume they were rebellious from the start when they were appointed, but they let power corrupt them.

We see a picture of this in Psalm 82, which comes much later than Deuteronomy 32. In Psalm 82, the psalmist—Asaph—is crying out to God, essentially saying, “What are you going to do about these unjust rulers?”

Cody Urban: I’ve got it pulled up right here. And what’s funny is, I’m still in the CSB. Like we just said, we both have a love and respect for this translation. But here’s Psalm 82:1:

"God stands in the divine assembly; He pronounces judgment among the gods."

Anthony Delgado: This one isn’t really up for debate. It literally says, "Elohim has taken His place in the divine council; in the midst of Elohim, He holds judgment." You can’t argue that these characters are just the people of Israel. For one, they die later in the passage, so that interpretation doesn’t work. Clearly, God has a divine council or divine assembly that He uses to carry out His purposes on earth.

And really, this isn’t any different from when Jesus says that if we don’t proclaim the gospel, the stones could cry out.

Anthony Delgado: God doesn’t need us, but He chooses to use us. This is just another example of Him using His divine creation. We see this pattern throughout the Bible. One example is in the Torah when Moses is in the wilderness and goes up on Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments.

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: Who does he receive them from?

Cody Urban: I would say Yahweh.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. But when Stephen retells the story in Acts, he says that the law was delivered by angels. So, you get what seems like a disagreement there. But is it really a disagreement? Because if God used angels to mediate the law to Moses, didn’t Moses still receive that law from God?

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: Right. If I write a letter, put it in the mail, and it gets delivered by a postman, it’s still a letter from me, right? So, we have to understand that God always works through created beings to accomplish His purposes. That includes divine beings.

This doesn’t mean there’s some kind of plurality of equal authorities in the divine council, as if Yahweh is on the same level as other created beings. That’s not what this means. It means that God has advisors in a sense, and at times in the Old Testament, He allows them to speak up and even contribute ideas.

Cody Urban: Yeah, I’m probably going to get this wrong, but I remember a passage where God is looking for input from the divine council about leading an evil king astray. I think it was during the time when Israel and Judah were divided.

I’m paraphrasing, but it’s something like, “Who’s got a good idea for how to trip him up? He’s doing evil in the eyes of the Lord, and we need to frustrate his plans.” Then one of the Elohim… 

Anthony Delgado: …a spirit speaks up and says, “I’ll go be a lying spirit in his mouth.”

Cody Urban: Right!

Anthony Delgado: That’s exactly what happens. But even then, it’s all under Yahweh’s power, authority, and permission. He is still King over them. That’s what we need to understand.

Now, what’s interesting is when we get to verse 2 of Psalm 82. Within the divine council, these so-called gods—these sons of God—are, in a sense, rulers. They are referred to as Elohim.

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: We see this again in verse 6:

"I said, ‘You are gods, sons of the Most High.’"

In Hebrew, it reads, “You are Elohim, sons of Elyon.” They are called gods, but they are not gods in the way Yahweh is.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: That’s the balance we need to keep. Their role was never to rule the nations according to their own inherent power, wisdom, or purpose. That wasn’t the intent.

In fact, Psalm 82 is all about God condemning these sons of God because they failed to rule justly. I’ve often said their role is more about being judges than gods in the way we think of divine beings.

Did they receive worship as gods?

Cody Urban: Yeah, but they shouldn’t have, right?

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. That was incorrect. They should have been judges pointing people to Yahweh.

Cody Urban: Right. Wow. If anyone listening is getting a little lost in this, one way I’ve thought about it is by comparing the word Elohim to something like the word fish.

It can be singular or plural—one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish. Just like how a great white shark is still technically a fish, even though it’s vastly different from a guppy, the same is true of Yahweh and these other spiritual beings.

Yahweh is like the great white shark, and His divine council—

Anthony Delgado: —are the guppies. Elohim is a category that can include various types of beings.

So, yeah, absolutely. You see that in Psalm 82:

"Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; rescue the weak and the needy. They have neither knowledge nor understanding; they walk in darkness."

God is judging these gods. What's interesting is that everything they're accused of—favoring the wicked, oppressing the poor—is the same kind of injustice we see in Amos.

Cody Urban: The Israelites were committing these same unjust and wicked acts.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. And we could say that perhaps this has something to do with them following gods who are not Yahweh—that they have learned unjust ways from them. So that's what’s happening in Psalm 82. God stands in the divine council, judging these Elohim, these gods, for ruling unjustly over the nations assigned to them. Instead of upholding justice, they showed partiality to the wicked and oppressed the poor.

Cody Urban: This might be getting into the weeds, but to help make sense of it—even for myself—would it be biblical to say that these beings actually have power? Let me qualify that. I was reading a book that a great man once gave me—I'm pointing at you right now—and it talked about understanding the powers of darkness. It described ancient practices—many of which still exist today—where people try to coerce spiritual powers into action.

Essentially, it’s magic. People try to manipulate spiritual beings to act on their behalf for selfish goals. For example, voodoo—where you use a poppet or voodoo doll to curse someone—is a way of attempting to control a spiritual power for personal gain. In those cases, if a spiritual being actually responds and carries out an action on behalf of a wicked person, would that be biblical?

Anthony Delgado: Well, certainly—at least while they had power.

Cody Urban: I see.

Anthony Delgado: We're about to get into some judgment on these gods, but yes—while they had power, they could act. I mean, we wouldn’t be so concerned about demons if they weren’t actually capable of doing something.

Cody Urban: That’s a great point.

Anthony Delgado: Of course, there are a million questions that come with that topic. By the way, the book you’re talking about—is it Powers and Principalities in Paul by Clinton Arnold?

Cody Urban: Yeah—the purple book, right?

Anthony Delgado: Yep. I highly recommend it. Powers and Principalities in Paul by Clinton Arnold—he’s the dean of Talbot School of Theology here in Southern California. Great scholar.

Anyway, as you pointed out, we see a trickle-down effect. These unjust gods influence people, encouraging selfishness and oppression. We even see some of that in Genesis 3 in the garden. These so-called gods—Paul even calls them that in 1 Corinthians—are rebellious. Now, let’s take a look at Deuteronomy 32:16-17.

Cody Urban: Do you want me to read it from the—

Anthony Delgado: Or I can read it.

Cody Urban: I know, I'm so sorry.

Anthony Delgado: Okay, I’m gonna read it. It says:

"They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger."

Now, notice how at this point, it can’t be referring to the sons of Israel anymore because they’re now called strange gods.

"They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations, they provoked him to anger."

So, God is angered by their worship of these foreign gods. Now, verse 17 is really important. Paul actually quotes this verse in 1 Corinthians.

"They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had recently come, whom your fathers had never dreaded."

Cody Urban: The CSB says almost exactly the same thing. The only difference is where you said strange gods, it says different gods. So, what’s really interesting is that even within the same passage of Deuteronomy 32—where earlier it referred to sons of Israel—here it’s clearly talking about lowercase-g gods and demons.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. And that’s one of the reasons we can tell which translation preserves the older reading. Some might argue that there was a variant text that originally said gods instead of people of Israel, and later scribes corrected it. They’ll say that’s why the majority of later manuscripts say sons of Israel. But that argument doesn’t hold up when you look at the rest of the passage.

Cody Urban: Right, exactly.

Anthony Delgado: If scribes had intentionally altered the text, they didn’t change enough. Whoever made that modification—whether for theological reasons or by mistake—didn’t do a thorough job of erasing the original meaning.

So, we read in verse 17: "They sacrificed to demons that were not gods." This shows a shift in Moses' thinking as he reflects on what these cosmic rulers did after Babel. They didn’t rule justly as they were supposed to.

Even in verse 18—though I didn’t originally have this in my notes—it says:

"You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you, and you forgot the God who gave you birth."

That’s the real condemnation. These gods were supposed to point people to Yahweh—the God who created them—but instead, they led people into idolatry. That’s why God is angry.

I want to highlight two key things here. First, Moses identifies these gods as demons. Now, the Greek word daemon naturally means a lesser god—a term for spiritual beings that places them at a lower hierarchical level.

Cody Urban: You told me once that they were called Shades or Shadim, something like that?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, Shadim is the traditional Hebrew word. But Shades—or Shadim—actually comes from an interpretation of the word Rephaim, which is a different classification of demons. So, the Shadim are purely spiritual beings, whereas Shades—the term often used—comes from the Rephaim, which in Hebrew also means giants.

Cody Urban: Okay.

Anthony Delgado: And if you’ve read my book, The Watchers and the Holy Ones, you’ll know this connects to the Book of Enoch—specifically The Book of the Watchers. That section of Enoch describes the Genesis 6 rebellion of the Watchers, where fallen angels had children with human women. Their offspring were the giants—the Rephaim.

Now, when these giants died, Enoch tells us that their spirits couldn’t go to Sheol because they were part divine spirit. So instead, they were cursed to roam the earth.

And what do we see in the Gospels? Disembodied spirits desperately trying to inhabit bodies. That’s exactly what they’re doing. They seek to possess a body that already has a human soul, which creates spiritual conflict.

So, the disembodied spirits of the Rephaim, the giants—that’s another kind of demon.

Cody Urban: That’s amazing because this actually helps make sense of so many difficult or confusing passages. When Jesus comes on the scene, it suddenly feels like demons are everywhere. You don’t really see much about them in the Old Testament, and then all of a sudden, they’re a major factor in the New Testament.

Understanding this background actually brings even more cohesion to the Bible. It also helps explain passages that otherwise seem to come out of left field. For example, I’m thinking of Daniel 10, where—it’s Michael, right?—the archangel, or rather, a messenger, comes to Daniel and says, "I was coming to you, but I was contending with the Prince of Persia."

Anthony Delgado: Mm-hmm.

Cody Urban: And I’ve read into that—why would an angel be fighting a human prince? It makes more sense if this Prince of Persia is a spiritual prince. If there are Elohim—spiritual beings—over different people groups, then Prince would be an appropriate title. It denotes authority over a nation or people group.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, and that’s pretty much undisputed in Daniel. The reference to princes—which occurs multiple times—is referring to cosmic rulers.

Anthony Delgado: That means they existed before the physical world. The spiritual creation happened before the physical creation. Now, something important to note—if you just read the Bible left to right, it can get confusing when you reach the New Testament.

Cody Urban: What art thou talking aboutest?

Anthony Delgado: Ha! Exactly. Language evolves over time—surprise, surprise. When you get to the New Testament, suddenly, you start seeing the term angels used more frequently. Now, angel literally means messenger. We do see angels in the Old Testament, and they function as God’s messengers. But by the time we get to the New Testament, the term is sometimes applied more broadly to divine beings in general.

For instance, Jude 6 says: "The angels who did not stay within their own position of authority..." Jude is referring to divine beings—what Enoch calls Watchers. He calls them angels, but he’s still talking about these high-ranking spiritual beings. So, the term angel gets broadened in the New Testament to refer to divine beings in general, whereas the Old Testament tends to retain more specific classifications. That said, we still see some crossover, like in Deuteronomy 32, where the sons of God are later described as demons.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: And that just reminds me—we have to hold these categories loosely. A lot of people try to create a taxonomy for the spirit world—like putting supernatural beings into neat, ordered classifications. But that’s kind of ridiculous. We’re trying to apply natural human logic—the kind we use to categorize plants and animals—to something supernatural. Instead of forcing it into rigid categories, we should just let these beings be what they are.

I actually just had a conversation about this because I’m working on a book. I don’t know what I’m going to call it yet, but it’s basically a biography of the devil.

Cody Urban: That might be a good title.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah.

Cody Urban: Or at least a subtitle.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, I think it’s likely to become the subtitle. Nobody needs to get too excited, though—it’s going to be a few years before that one is released. But the idea is this—twice in Revelation, John explicitly ties together the devil, Satan, and the serpent from the garden. He writes something like, “The serpent, who is the devil and Satan.”

Cody Urban: Doesn’t it also say, “The devil and his angels” in that passage?

Anthony Delgado: Not exactly there, but that phrase does appear in the Gospels. And when Jesus talks about the devil and his angels, I think He’s referring to these fallen spiritual beings—the sons of God from Deuteronomy 32, who were assigned as rulers over the nations but later rebelled. We’ll have to get to that—and soon. There’s just so much to cover here.

But yeah, when you read the Bible left to right, you don’t immediately see that the devil, the serpent, and Satan are all the same character.

Anthony Delgado: It's not until you get to the New Testament that you start to see those connections made explicitly. So, I just want to say—hold these things loosely. These terms develop over time as language evolves. Also, if you're a Christian, a follower of Jesus, you shouldn’t expect to see the fullness of the gospel already laid out in Genesis.

Especially when it comes to topics like the offense of sin, Jesus' atoning death, and how His sacrifice functions penally to deal with the sins of the world—those ideas develop over time. We’ll cover this in a future episode, but when people read Leviticus and say, “I don’t see penal substitution here,” it’s because the narrative is still developing. God continued to inspire Scripture, progressively revealing His redemptive plan. It’s impossible to contain everything in one place.

So, we need to hold these things loosely and recognize that characters who seem distinct in early texts are later revealed—rightly or wrongly—to be the same entity in later revelation.

Cody Urban: I think I mentioned this in a previous episode, but there’s a moment in Revelation—I want to say Revelation 12, maybe 20—where John explicitly connects Satan, the devil, and the great serpent. It reminds me of the end of a Scooby-Doo episode, when they finally unmask the villain, and it’s like, “It was old man Jenkins the whole time!”

Anthony Delgado: It was the serpent from the garden the whole time!

Cody Urban: Exactly! Because in Genesis 3, the serpent just kind of disappears. You see serpentine imagery throughout Scripture, but at face value, it’s almost like—there was a talking snake, and now he’s just gone?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, like—where did he go? And why was Genesis 3 such a big deal if this character never gets mentioned again? Except—he has been mentioned. He’s been hard at work behind the scenes the entire time.

Jim Hamilton talks about this a lot. He’s a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary—a great scholar of biblical theology. He points out that so much of the biblical narrative is aimed at undoing the work of Genesis 3. When the serpent deceived Eve, God declared that the seed of the woman would crush the serpent’s head. That promise gets traced all throughout Scripture.

Hamilton isn’t the only one who makes this case, but he’s done a great job of articulating it. Now, back to the sons of God motif—these divine rulers were appointed to govern the nations. But they rebelled. In the New Testament, they are sometimes referred to as angels. The term angel becomes more flexible—it can refer to both faithful and fallen spiritual beings.

In Hebrews 1:14, the author writes: "Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?" I think he’s speaking broadly here. These sons of God were sent over the nations to be ministering spirits. They were supposed to lead people into Yahweh’s grace. Instead, they chose the way of the serpent and led people into idolatry and rebellion.

That’s who they are. Now, let’s look at another key passage—Genesis 1:26.

Cody Urban: I was just listening to a sermon where the preacher read that passage—“Let us make mankind in our image.” And he said, “That’s the Father speaking to the Son and the Spirit.” So, he understood us as referring to the triune God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But I assume we might have a slightly different perspective on that? Would we take us here as referring to the divine council instead?

Anthony Delgado: I think that within a biblical-theological framework, that’s the best way to read it.

Cody Urban: Sure.

Anthony Delgado: Now, forgive me if we’ve covered this before, but there’s a difference between biblical theology and systematic theology. Most of what people learn in church is systematic theology. So, let me explain. I actually think there’s a sense in which both views can be true.

Cody Urban: Okay.

Anthony Delgado: From a biblical-theological perspective—the story that Scripture is telling—God created the angels (I’ll use the New Testament term), and they were present at creation, singing praises to God. So when He says, “Let us make man in our image,” He’s speaking in the presence of the divine council. I believe He’s describing humanity as being created with a kind of divine quality—

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: —made like us, meaning like the divine. I go into far more detail on this in my book, The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think. We don’t have time to unpack it all here, but the meaning of being made in the image of God is a huge topic.

Anthony Delgado: But we can acknowledge both the biblical theology—which presents creation in six days—and systematic theology, which interprets that in different ways.

You mentioned Dr. Michael Heiser a moment ago—he talked about this a lot. He never explicitly said whether he was a six-day creationist or not, but he did make it clear that he didn’t believe Genesis was intended to teach science. So he showed his hand in that way. For me, I almost always talk about creation in six days—because I primarily deal with biblical theology. But if someone wants to discuss Genesis 1:26 from a systematic theological perspective—where us refers to the Trinity—I can engage in that discussion as well.

Prosopological exegesis allows us to see a second conversation happening within the narrative. Because God is sovereign over His word, and Scripture is inspired by Him for the edification of His people (2 Timothy 3:16), we can recognize deeper or higher meanings within the text. That doesn’t mean these interpretations contradict each other. It simply means we can see layers of meaning—there’s the biblical theological narrative, there’s the reality of how things actually happened, and then there’s what Matthew Bates calls a Theodrama—the unfolding divine narrative where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are actively involved in creation.

Cody Urban: I love it. It is mind-blowing, and it should be. We’re talking about an infinite God while we are third-dimensional beings—I can't travel through time, we experience it in a steady rate moving forward. But God transcends dimensions, even those we can’t comprehend. So to try to put Him in a box is just futile.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. And honestly, there are only a few good books about prosopological exegesis. You can Google it and find some solid material, but there aren’t many in-depth resources. There are some great examples of how the church fathers read the Old Testament this way and even a few places where the New Testament authors may have applied this framework to their understanding of the Trinity. It’s fascinating.

If anyone wants to hold these perspectives in tension, they can research it further. But as for Genesis 1:26, I definitely believe that within the biblical theology framework, this should be understood as God speaking to His divine creation—not yet a divine council, because at that point, there was nothing to rule over.

Cody Urban: Hmm. Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: But we’re getting there. Now, 1 Kings 22—

Cody Urban: I think that’s the passage I was alluding to earlier. 1 Kings 22:19-20 says: "Then Micaiah said, 'Therefore, hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and the whole heavenly army was standing by Him at His right hand and at His left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to march up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?’"

That’s the king I was trying to think of earlier! It’s a moment where God is on His throne, but He’s surrounded by the heavenly host—or army, depending on the translation. I think that’s alluding to the same thing, right?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. Read verses 21-22.

Cody Urban: Sure. "Then a spirit came forward, stood in the Lord’s presence, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ The Lord asked him, ‘How?’ He said, ‘I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You will certainly entice him and prevail. Go and do that.’"

Anthony Delgado: Yep, so there you go. That’s the narrative, and we don’t need to dive too deeply into it since we already touched on it earlier. You’d think I’d have all this memorized since I write these notes, but here we are!

What we’re seeing is a practical outworking of a conversation happening within the divine council. Yahweh poses a question—"How are we going to do this?"—and a spirit volunteers an idea. Yahweh approves it and sends him out to carry it out. That’s the structure we see in multiple divine council scenes.

And yet, within that narrative, Yahweh remains the one with ultimate authority.

Cody Urban: Yep.

Anthony Delgado: And He chooses to work through His creation. Job 1:6—

Cody Urban: "One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them."

Anthony Delgado: Yeah.

Cody Urban: We’ve talked about this before—Satan seems like an afterthought in this scene, like he’s just trailing along behind the sons of God.

Anthony Delgado: Right. And we’ve discussed how the biblical narrative flips over time—Satan, once among the sons of God, eventually becomes the ruler over a rebellious faction. By the time we reach the New Testament, we hear about "the devil and his angels" rather than the sons of God. That transition happens across biblical history.

Cody Urban: And this moment explicitly refers to the sons of God. Going back to a previous discussion I had with another brother in Christ—he argued that even if the correct translation in Deuteronomy 32 is sons of God, it might still refer to the sons of Israel. His reasoning was that Israel’s Father is Yahweh, so why couldn’t the sons of God be Israelites?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah, that doesn’t hold up. It’s destructive to the narrative.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: At that point, you have to start making excuses for the text. If sons of God referred to Israel in Job 1:6, what exactly are they doing in heaven presenting themselves before Yahweh? You’d have to fabricate some explanation—like saying they were just praying or something like that.

Cody Urban: I guess.

Anthony Delgado: But then you run into the problem that there’s no Jacob’s ladder anymore, no established way for people to ascend into the heavenly realm. So, that argument just doesn’t make sense.

Instead, we get a throne room scene where the sons of God physically present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan joins them to have a direct conversation with God. The same thing happens in Job 2:1: "Again, there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord." Then the whole dialogue repeats itself.

Now, just in case someone still thinks Deuteronomy 32 is referring to the people of Israel rather than divine beings, let’s look at Isaiah 6. This is the famous vision of the Lord.

Cody Urban: I was thinking about bringing this up earlier—even before I saw it in the notes—because we were talking about the word angel being used broadly. I feel like we see moments in the Old Testament where angel is used ambiguously, but in Isaiah 6, there’s a clear distinction.

Isaiah 6:1-3 says: "In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne, and the hem of His robe filled the temple. Seraphim were standing above Him; they each had six wings. With two, they covered their faces. With two, they covered their feet. And with two, they flew. And one called to another: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Armies; His glory fills the whole earth!’"

Shall I continue?

Anthony Delgado: Keep going for a little.

Cody Urban: Yeah, sure. The foundations of the doorways shook at the sound of their voices, and the temple was filled with smoke. Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined because I am a man of unclean lips and live among a people of unclean lips. And because my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of armies."

Anthony Delgado: Let's stop there. That's what I wanted you to see. This is Isaiah in the presence of Yahweh. When it says, "Above him stood the Seraphim, each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet," it’s not talking about what you see in paintings—the Seraphim covering their own faces and literal feet. That’s not what's happening. With two wings, the Seraphim are covering God’s face because no one can see the face of the Lord. And with two, they are covering his feet—which, in Hebrew, is a euphemism for the loins.

Cody Urban: Like in Ruth, where she uncovers his feet?

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. In multiple places in the Old Testament, "feet" refers to the loins. So the Seraphim are protecting Isaiah from the glory and holiness of God. That’s the key point here. Isaiah comes in and immediately realizes, "I cannot be here. I am going to die." That’s his response. And yet, he can remain there because the Seraphim are protecting him.

This is an inversion of the common ancient worldview. In other myths, divine beings have throne guardians to protect kings from intruders because gods in those myths can be harmed or killed. But Yahweh doesn’t need protection. His throne guardians aren’t there to shield Him from danger—they’re there to shield Isaiah from Yahweh’s overwhelming holiness. That’s the reversal happening here.

And again, I hate to keep emphasizing this, but this is not the Israelites entering the throne room of God. This isn’t the people of Israel—it’s the sons of God. That’s the only way the narrative makes sense.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: They couldn’t just walk into the presence of Yahweh. That’s why Paul’s words in Hebrews are so significant when he says, "We boldly approach the throne of grace." We can only do that because we are in Christ, clothed in His righteousness, covered by His blood. Otherwise, no one could enter the presence of God. That’s what we’re supposed to see here.

Now, these fallen sons of God are part of a repeated pattern. When we read Scripture in order, we see the rebellion of Satan in the garden, then the rebellion in Genesis 6, then the social rebellion at Babel. When we later read in Deuteronomy that God appointed the sons of God to rule the nations, we’re supposed to recognize, "Oh, we’ve seen this pattern before."

Let’s go through this quickly since we’ve covered it a lot. Genesis 6:1-4—do you want to read that one?

Cody Urban: I just switched over to the ESV, and I noticed something interesting. In Isaiah, it actually says, "With two he covered his face," whereas in the CSB, it says, "They covered their faces."

Anthony Delgado: That’s a fascinating distinction, isn’t it?

Cody Urban: Yeah, definitely. I had never noticed that before—mind blown. That’s why I love these discussions.

Anthony Delgado: Me too! Sometimes I have to go back and listen to my own podcast just to catch everything I said.

Cody Urban: Love it. All right, Genesis 6:1-4:

"When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh; his days shall be 120 years.' The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown."

Anthony Delgado: Yep. This narrative exists to show why the flood happens. In verse 5, it says, "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." The reason for this corruption? The sons of God took human women and had children with them—the Nephilim, the giants, the mighty men of renown.

That’s the beginning of a pattern. When the sons of God show up, trouble follows.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: There’s even a foreshadowing in the text. It says, "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward." That phrase is key. The wording is ambiguous. Is it saying the Nephilim were there when the sons of God first did this? That’s clear from the context. But is it also saying they did this again afterward?

Cody Urban: That would explain references to the Rephaim and other giants after the flood.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. I think that’s what this is—a foreshadowing of what’s to come. When you read through the flood narrative, it’s clear the original Nephilim died in the flood. There’s no strange theory about Noah’s sons carrying "giant DNA" or anything like that. That’s not what’s happening.

The reason we see Nephilim after the flood—like in Numbers and later with Goliath and his brothers—is that the sons of God continued doing this. That’s the implication. So when we read about God appointing the sons of God to rule the nations in Deuteronomy 32, we’re supposed to remember this pattern and think, "Oh, we’ve seen these guys before."

Cody Urban: Right—so these later sons of God would be the ones referred to at Babel?

Anthony Delgado: Yeah.

Deuteronomy 32. Those are the sons of God afterward. That appears to be the reason why, in the ancient world, the term son of God was often used to refer to the king of a nation.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: The king was considered, in a sense, the son of his god. I believe the reason for that is rooted in this text—because if the sons of God continued doing this, then the human kings of the nations were seen as the offspring of these divine beings and human women.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: If this passage is teaching that this happened also afterward, then the Watchers or sons of God that appeared after the flood were the ones appointed by Yahweh at Babel, as described in Deuteronomy 32. That would explain why, when David goes to fight the Philistines, the commander of their army is a giant. Who is he? He’s a Nephilim—the offspring of a son of God and a human woman. Suddenly, the narrative starts making more sense when you put these pieces together.

Cody Urban: I’m going to try to distill something you explained to me once, off the podcast. I don’t think we ever covered it, but it might help if someone listening is struggling with these concepts.

When Jesus is asked about marriage in the resurrection, He says people will be like the angels—they won’t be given in marriage. That seems to imply that angels—or at least the broader category of divine beings—don’t marry. But you once explained that, in some ancient rituals, spiritual beings were invited to dwell within men, essentially possessing them, so that when those men impregnated women, their children were considered divine offspring.

So, rather than being half divine and half human, the Nephilim would be something like one-third divine and two-thirds human. Am I making sense? I feel like this is something you’ve explained before.

Anthony Delgado: Hmm, I’m not putting it together exactly as you are, but I think when Jesus says that, He’s referring to the eternal kingdom of God—not the present one.

Cody Urban: I see.

Anthony Delgado: He’s saying that, in the eternal kingdom, people will be like the angels—neither given nor taken in marriage. But He doesn’t say that angels cannot procreate or that humans in the resurrection cannot procreate.

Cody Urban: True.

Anthony Delgado: What He actually says is that they are not given in marriage. In other words, they should not procreate. And when the sons of God do procreate in Genesis 6, they’re condemned. Their offspring perpetuate wickedness on the earth, and when those offspring die, their spirits become demons.

Cody Urban: Wow.

Anthony Delgado: So, I think that passage in the Gospels actually reinforces this narrative. Jesus isn’t saying angels are incapable—it’s more like, “That’s not what they’re supposed to do.” It’s related to another common question: Can we sin in heaven?

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: And my answer is usually, well, when people say “heaven,” what they really mean is the eternal kingdom of God. And in that kingdom, the answer is—who cares? You won’t.

Cody Urban: Right. You won’t want to.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. That’s what we’re supposed to understand. In glorified flesh, we will be incapable of sinning—just as Christ is.

So, in the eternal kingdom, men and women won’t be fundamentally different, but there won’t be a need for procreation. That’s why Jesus says what He does. Angels weren’t supposed to procreate, but apparently, they could—at least in some sense.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: Although, if you go way back to, like, the second or third episode of the podcast, I laid out some different theories about what’s actually happening in Genesis 6. I don’t think we need to understand it as divine beings physically taking on bodies to procreate with women. If anyone wants to dig into that, they can. That’s their job, not mine.

So, we see this pattern—sons of God cohabitating with human women, producing giants. And that foreshadows what happens when God appoints the sons of God over the nations at Babel. They rebel, just as the Genesis 6 sons of God did. And those sons of God? They were following the same rebellious pattern as Satan in the garden.

We’ve covered this before, so we don’t need to re-read everything, but—

Cody Urban: But how is Christ victorious over this? That’s the whole point, right?

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. And I promised we’d break this down in a structured way, which is why we spent so much time setting up the problem. But yeah—we need to get to Christus Victor.

If sin and death came through the influence of these rebellious spiritual beings, then Christ’s victory is fundamentally over them. From there, His victory extends to giving eternal life instead of death and replacing sin with glory.

So, let’s start with Colossians 2:15.

Cody Urban: "He disarmed the rulers and authorities and disgraced them publicly; He triumphed over them in Him."

Anthony Delgado: Right. This verse is directly commenting on Psalm 82, where the psalmist cries out, How long will You let these sons of the Most High rule unjustly over the nations?

Now, this is what we’d call a partial fulfillment. Because in Psalm 82, part of the condemnation is, You will die like men.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: And how do men die? They’re condemned to Sheol. And in the end, they are cast into the lake of fire, which Revelation tells us was prepared for the devil and his angels.

So, this all comes full circle.

Cody Urban: Right—it connects all the dots.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. But the final judgment hasn’t happened yet.

Cody Urban: Got it.

Anthony Delgado: However, at Christ’s first coming—His inaugural advent—we see that these powers were disarmed.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: And what’s really cool about this is that if you read 1 Enoch—and again, Enoch isn’t Scripture, but it gives historical insight—the first few chapters expand on Genesis 6. It describes how 200 Watchers came down, had children with human women, and later regretted it.

They sent Enoch as a messenger to plead for mercy, asking God if they could return to heaven. But when Enoch enters the throne room of God, Yahweh essentially tells him, I know why you’re here. The answer is no.

So, their first punishment isn’t to be cast into the underworld—it’s simply that they’re stuck on earth.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: And what we get in Jude 6—that these beings are chained in gloomy darkness—is actually because of what happens next in the narrative. It elaborates on why the wickedness of mankind was so severe.

Azazel and the other Watchers—presumably all of them—began teaching secret knowledge to humans. They taught nations how to war against each other, gave women the powers of seduction, and introduced forbidden knowledge. Essentially, they were teaching humans to sin.

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: They weren’t just corrupting people spiritually; they were actively instructing them on how to build societies centered on selfish ambition, power, and making a name for themselves above others.

Cody Urban: Yeah. So—Babel again?

Anthony Delgado: Actually, I think Genesis 11 is commenting on this pattern rather than repeating it. It’s showing why Babel happened—because these divine beings were teaching people how to exalt themselves.

Cody Urban: Hmm.

Anthony Delgado: I’ve even argued at times that Genesis 11 suggests Azazel was the so-called god they were worshiping at Babel—the one they were drawing on for power to make a name for themselves as a nation. But regardless, what we see in Colossians 2:15 is that Christ disarmed these rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them. The cosmic rulers of Deuteronomy 32—these authorities—were cast down.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: So, does that mean they’re no longer present?

Cody Urban: No, we definitely wouldn’t say that.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. They're still active, but not in the cosmos—they’re no longer ruling from the heavens. Instead, they exist now as demons, continuing their work on earth.

Cody Urban: Yeah. I think I mentioned this in a previous episode—I've often heard the analogy of D-Day and V-Day.

In World War II, once the Allies landed at Normandy on D-Day, it was over for the Axis powers. The war was won in principle, but there was still ground to cover before the final victory—before V-Day.

So, when Jesus says, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me before His ascension, it’s like we’re in that in-between period. The decisive battle has been won, but there’s still work to do. The enemy is defeated, yet still active.

Anthony Delgado: That’s a great analogy. But I’d push back slightly on one thing.

These powers can still be a real threat. We’ll cover that in the application section, but for now, I want to emphasize that while they have been disarmed, that doesn’t mean we can just ignore them and go about our business.

Look at Ephesians 1:20-21.

Cody Urban: "He exercised his power in Christ by raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavens—far above every ruler and authority, power and dominion, and every title given, not only in this age but also in the one to come."

Anthony Delgado: That’s right. The cosmic powers were dethroned, and in their place, Christ was enthroned.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: These divine rulers failed to rule justly, so God placed His Son—the true Son of God—on the throne instead.

We’ve talked extensively about Jesus as the Davidic king, the rightful ruler of the earthly kingdom. But He’s also the cosmic king.

Cody Urban: Yes.

Anthony Delgado: He is the only king who is both human and divine.

Cody Urban: Exactly.

Anthony Delgado: He reigns on David’s throne and on Yahweh’s throne. That’s why Peter says in Acts that He is both Lord and Christ.

So, when Jesus declares in the Great Commission, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," He’s stating the reality of His victory.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: Now, I hope no one thinks we’re just proof-texting here—pulling scattered verses together to force an argument. That’s not what we’re doing.

The reason we’re walking through these passages is because Western Christians—especially those shaped by post-Enlightenment thinking—often have a hard time seeing the Bible through an ancient lens. Our modern way of thinking doesn’t always align with how a Hebrew would have understood these texts, or how the first-century church read them.

So, what we’re actually doing is retraining ourselves to see the cohesion of the biblical narrative.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: This isn’t a disjointed collection of ideas—it’s a single story woven throughout Scripture. No matter where you look, you’ll find this theme: Jesus’ spiritual victory over the cosmic powers. It’s embedded in the very fabric of the biblical story.

So, let’s talk about the implications of Christ's victory. Possibly the most fundamental aspect of His victory is found in the Great Commission. Because all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus, and because God works through both divine beings and human agents, we are commissioned to go and disciple the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything Christ commanded.

That alone is foundational. But people often want to talk about more specific applications—especially things like deliverance from demonic influence. There are different approaches to this topic. For example, one option is to try and explain away demons—suggesting that they aren’t real in the way many assume.

Let me share a quick story. Years ago, when I was a youth pastor, I had a friend who was also a youth pastor—great theology, deep understanding of Scripture, probably a much better grasp of spiritual matters than I had at the time. He took his youth group to a Pentecostal conference and invited me to bring my group, but we couldn’t go due to a scheduling conflict. The next day, he called me and said, "I’m so glad you guys didn’t come."

Cody Urban: Oh boy.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. So at the end of the conference, they did an altar call for repentance—so far, nothing unusual. But then, they had teenagers confessing sin, and instead of just praying with them, they started seating them in chairs and performing exorcisms.

Cody Urban: Wow.

Anthony Delgado: It escalated fast. My friend grabbed his kids and got out of there. That experience stuck with him—and me—because it highlights why so many people have a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to deliverance ministry.

And just a quick note—if anyone hears background music, there’s a band practice happening in the next room. If you hear something, it’s not the heavenly choir—it’s just David and his drums.

Cody Urban: The hosts of heaven!

Anthony Delgado: Exactly.

But back to the point—when we think about demonic influence, we need to remember the biblical paradigm. The primary way demons operate is through deception. So when we hear dramatic stories of demons manifesting in wild ways, we should approach those with skepticism. But at the same time, we should not dismiss their existence altogether. The Bible clearly portrays them as real, and there are chaotic spirits in the New Testament.

The key thing for believers to understand is that we have been freed from the power of darkness. We are no longer under their authority—we are under the authority of Christ. No matter what deception or lie a demonic spirit might use, our response should be, What does the Bible say?

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: This is exactly what we see in Matthew 4, when Jesus is tempted by the devil in the wilderness. He doesn’t engage in an argument—He simply responds with Scripture. "It is written..." That’s how He combats the lies of Satan—by standing on the truth of God’s Word.

And here’s another crucial point: It’s not just Christ who reigns. In a very real sense, we participate in His reign. Look at Ephesians 2:1-3:

"You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air..."

That reminds me of what John says—if you live like the devil, then you’re a child of the devil. But if you live like Christ, then you’re a child of God.

Cody Urban: That’s not exactly how John phrases it, but yeah, that’s the principle.

Anthony Delgado: Right. And then Ephesians 2:6 says: "He raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly places."

Cody Urban: Seated us—past tense. That’s what’s so amazing. Paul speaks as though this has already happened, even though we don’t physically remember it happening. It’s like Isaiah being brought into the throne room—except Paul is saying that, in some way, this is our present reality.

Anthony Delgado: Exactly. He’s saying that our future reign with Christ is already secured—we are already enthroned with Him in some sense. And why does God do this? Verse 7 tells us: "So that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace and kindness toward us in Christ."

So when we encounter the prince of the power of the air—when we confront the influence of demonic forces in the world—we need to recognize what that actually looks like. For Paul, encountering the devil isn’t just about some supernatural manifestation—it’s about facing disobedient humans.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: We often expect demonic encounters to look like scenes from The Exorcist—chaotic and dramatic. But Paul frames it differently. Most of the time, we’re not encountering demons in some theatrical way—we’re encountering people who are living in rebellion, doing the work of the devil through deception, oppression, and sin.

So how do we respond? We remember that we share in Christ’s reign.

What this doesn’t mean is that you can walk up to some corrupt coworker—someone causing trouble at your job—and try to exorcise them.

Cody Urban: Right.

Anthony Delgado: That’s not how it works. Paul reminds us that we were once like them—"But God, being rich in mercy, made us alive in Christ." So what’s the answer? Preach the gospel.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: That’s the real battle. And all of this ties into Ephesians 6—spiritual warfare.

Cody Urban: Exactly. We hear about the armor of God all the time, but the key thing Paul emphasizes is that our battle is not against flesh and blood. That means that mean-spirited coworker, that corrupt official, that person doing harm—they aren’t the real enemy.

We don’t fight with swords—we fight with truth. The Word of God is our weapon. We don’t destroy people—we bring truth to counter deception. That’s our battle.

Anthony Delgado: And that's exactly Paul's point in Ephesians 6. Starting in verse 12, "We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities..." And you might think, "Oh, yeah, against kings and earthly rulers." No, no—"...against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." That’s inarguable.

Paul is addressing two key questions: How do we navigate this world while remaining strong in the Lord? and How do we stand firm in His might? The answer is in verse 10—"Be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might." And how do we do that? By putting on the full armor of God, so that we can stand against the cosmic powers of this present darkness.

By the way, it’s funny you brought up Powers and Principalities in Paul because these verses in Ephesians are central to Clinton Arnold’s argument. His entire thesis focuses on how Paul sees the theme of cosmic powers playing out in spiritual warfare.

Cody Urban: Yeah.

Anthony Delgado: Right. That’s why Paul tells us to take up the whole armor of God—"the helmet of salvation, the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, the belt of truth..." And when we talk about truth, we could say that truth is Christ Himself.

A lot of people hear "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God," and immediately think of their Bible—like, "This is my sword!" And sure, in a sense, that’s true. But more profoundly, the Word of God is Christ. The way we wield the sword of the Spirit isn’t just by holding up a Bible—it’s by proclaiming the truth of the gospel.

Cody Urban: Yes. Yes.

Anthony Delgado: And that’s why it’s completely consistent to say that the gospel itself is the primary way we engage in spiritual warfare. We engage the powers of darkness in the world—which often manifest through disobedient humans—by proclaiming Christ’s victory and calling people into His kingdom. That’s why, in Matthew 28:18, Jesus declares, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." And Paul extends that authority to us.

Jesus then gives the command: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations." That’s how we confront darkness—by preaching the gospel, by bringing people out of disobedience and into the kingdom of God.

Cody Urban: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Delgado: Now, I know it’s not that easy. I don’t mean to make light of it.

Cody Urban: Yeah, sure.

Anthony Delgado: I’ve never considered myself a gifted evangelist—I wouldn’t say I’ve led masses of people to Christ. But that’s still our calling. We see people in disobedience, and we bring them into the kingdom.

And ultimately, this all leads to the eschatological hope—the why behind it all. Why are we discipling the nations? Because in Revelation, we see a vision of the throne room of God. In Revelation 4 and 5, we see the saints from every tribe, tongue, and nation worshiping before the throne.

Then, in Revelation 19 and 20, we get the imagery of Christ’s return. He comes, He judges the earth, He defeats the beast and the false prophet, He casts Satan into the lake of fire, and even death and Hades are destroyed. And why? So that in Revelation 21 and 22, we see the restoration of paradise. God's dwelling place is with man again.

This is the ultimate fulfillment of divine council theology. If we go back to Colossians, we see that Christ is ultimately dealing with the powers of darkness so that we can be enthroned with Him forever.

Cody Urban: Amen.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. That’s the whole big picture. This entire spiritual warfare—this Christus Victor atonement framework—is about undoing the work of Satan that began in the garden. It’s about restoring the dominion of humanity and re-establishing the garden, the paradise, where God dwells with His people.

Cody Urban: It’s beautiful.

Anthony Delgado: Yeah. And for anyone listening, this is biblical theology. It’s tracing the narrative of the text through all of Scripture. That’s what we’ve been doing.

So, any final thoughts?

Cody Urban: Do you want people to send in questions? Should they record their voices, or just write them down?

Anthony Delgado: No, absolutely not. Nobody has time for that.

If you have a question, you can message me on Facebook if we’re connected there, or go to my website, anthonydelgado.net, and use the contact form. You can also email me at me@anthonydelgado.net—I check all of those places.

I’ll also be sending out an invite through the newsletter and posting a request for questions on Facebook, possibly elsewhere. We’re putting together a Q&A episode covering both the Kingdom of God and the Christus Victor model of atonement—they’re deeply connected themes.

Thank you, everyone, for joining us today! If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you’re listening. That helps expand the reach of the podcast so we can reach more people.

And don’t forget to visit anthonydelgado.net, where you can sign up for the mailing list to get updates on new episodes, resources, and insights delivered straight to your inbox. You’ll also find past episodes, books, videos, articles, and other content that I’m constantly adding to.

We’ve got some great stuff coming up—Q&A, some interviews (which Cody may or may not know about yet)—but until then, keep looking to Christ, keep proclaiming His kingship, and remember that we reign with Him.